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Insulin resistance + primal

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  • #31
    Stop saying I'm starving myself.
    Starving yourself is ignoring your hunger. I don't do that.
    It took me a long time to learn to listen to what my body is saying and that is huge for me, so you can't blame me for being reluctant to change that

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    • #32
      Would dedicated snacks restart your binge cycle? To the effect of adding a 4th "mini meal" in a set time frame that would be macro proportionate and relatively dense?
      Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, steak in one hand, chocolate in the other, yelling "Holy F***, What a Ride!"
      My Latest Journal

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      • #33
        It is early days, focus on how you feel and track your numbers...you are coming off the high carb crap and you body needs time to correct itself.
        Follow close and keep yourself healthy.
        Eating primal is not a diet, it is a way of life.
        PS
        Don't forget to play!

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        • #34
          It's not really early though its been 4 months.

          I could change the bp coffee for a meal with similar macros but it won't add more calories though so not sure how that will change anything

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          • #35
            I don't think starving makes you insulin resistant. It should actually do the opposite. It's more about excessive sugar without enough movement to burn them. Happens to livestock too, even when they are eating just what they crave on their own. The only way "starving" would do this is with organ damage, and yes, the lack of certain nutrients would contribute as well. But some of us are just genetically "easy keepers", we get insulin resistant easily as a survival mechanism. We add weight easy to be ready for famines.

            Don't eat when you aren't hungry, and make sure the foods you eat are nutrient dense, minerals and vitamins. Make sure you're getting your Omega 3's. Exercise.

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            • #36
              In case anyone cares I ate a bigger meal just now than I would have normally. Ie didn't stop when I felt satisfied and now I feel very full and sick.
              I'm not doing that to myself again thanks .
              Ashley that is what I do now

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              • #37
                I believe it has been shown quite clearly that low carb causes what is known as 'physiological insulin resistance'. Hyperlipid: Physiological insulin resistance

                Back in mid summer 2007 there was this thread on the Bernstein forum. Mark, posting as iwilsmar, asked about his gradual yet progressively rising fasting blood glucose (FBG) level over a 10 year period of paleolithic LC eating. Always eating less than 30g carbohydrate per day. Initially on LC his blood glucose was 83mg/dl but it has crept up, year by year, until now his FBG is up to 115mg/dl. Post prandial values are normal.

                He wanted to know if he was developing diabetes.

                I've been thinking about this for some time as my own FBG is usually five point something mmol/l whole blood. Converting my whole blood values to Mark's USA plasma values, this works out at about 100-120mg/dl. Normal to prediabetic in modern parlance. However my HbA1c is only 4.4%, well toward the lower end of normality and healthy. That's always assuming that I don't have some horrible problem resulting in very rapid red blood cell turnover. I don't think so...

                I spend rather a lot of my life in mild ketosis, despite the 50g of carbs I eat per day. So I can run a moderate ketonuric urine sample with a random post-chocolate blood glucose value of 6.5mmol/l.

                What is happening? Well, the first thing is that LC eating rapidly induces insulin resistance. This is a completely and utterly normal physiological response to carbohydrate restriction. Carbohydrate restriction drops insulin levels. Low insulin levels activate hormone sensitive lipase. Fatty tissue breaks down and releases non esterified fatty acids. These are mostly taken up by muscle cells as fuel and automatically induce insulin resistance in those muscles. There are a couple of nice summaries by Brand Miller (from back in the days when she used her brain for thinking) here and here and Wolever has some grasp of the problem too.

                This is patently logical as muscle runs well on lipids and so glucose can be left for tissues such as brain, which really need it. Neuronal tissue varies in its use of insulin to uptake glucose but doesn't accumulate lipid in the way muscle does, so physiological insulin resistance is not an issue for brain cells.

                However, while muscles are in "refusal mode" for glucose the least input, from food or gluconeogenesis, will rapidly spike blood glucose out of all proportion. This is fine if you stick to LC in your eating. It also means that if you take an oral glucose tolerance test you will fail and be labelled diabetic. In fact, even a single high fat meal can do this, extending insulin resistance in to the next day. Here's a reference for this.

                The general opinion in LC circles is that you need 150g of carbohydrate per day for three days before an oral glucose tolerance test.

                I did this carb loading thing, then performed my own OGTT. It came out very normal except for mild reactive hypoglycaemia.

                So, I often walk around with a fasting blood glucose of 5.9mmol/l and in mild ketosis, yet have normal pancreatic and muscle function, provided I carb load before the test. BTW my FBG dropped to 4.3mmol/l after three days of carb loading.

                That then raises the question as to whether Mark "iwilsmar" and myself are typical of LC eating people, or an oddity or two.

                This brought to mind the self selected macronutrient study performed on mice by Ortman, Prinzler and Klause. They allowed mice to select their own diet and, lo and behold, the mice chose (by calories, not weight!) 82% fat and 5.6% carbohydrate. Sensible mice.

                NB These German mice should each be given Professorships of Nutrition at medical schools in the most obese nations of the world. Quite what we should do with the current professors I'm not sure, but I bet the mice could think of something.

                Anyway, these mice are cool. The only thing that bugged me when I first read the paper was that they had a higher fasting blood glucose than those poor mice fed the normal junk which passes for laboratory mouse "chow".

                This now fits in to an overall pattern. Elevated non esterified fatty acids induce physiological insulin resistance and a higher than expected FBG level. A simple switch to higher carbohydrate eating (in myself) allows the normal underlying pancreatic and muscle function to show. It also fits in with the FBG of 3.5mmol/l found in the carbohydrate fuelled natives in the Kitava studies.

                So do I worry about a FBG of over 5.5mmol/l?

                Not while my HbA1c is 4.4%.

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                • #38
                  hmm that is interesting Otzi, might see if I can find more on that

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                  • #39
                    Originally posted by Ayla2010 View Post
                    hmm that is interesting Otzi, might see if I can find more on that
                    It makes sense, and I've seen it first hand in myself. If you keep carbs low, insulin never spikes in response to it and the muscles don't need to remove glucose from the blood as directed by insulin. Then, all your glucose needs get met by the liver making glucose from protein which slowly and steadily leak into your blood, but never spiking like with eating a bunch of starch or sugar.

                    I have watched my FBG go from 80's to 110's over 2 years LC. My FBG was 120 in my SAD days, eating PB w/carbs brought it down to 80's, then I went LC for almost 2 years and it crept up.

                    Now, I've re-introduced carbs and my FBG is 120 some mornings. Post-prandial is low 100's and just before bed, 4 hours after dinner is around 95, but 9 hours later it's at 120.

                    I'm playing a bit with carb timing and notice if I eat just a few at lunch and most at dinner my morning FBG is in the high 90's.

                    I'm hoping this all resolves itself after a few months of steady carbs.

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                    • #40
                      Originally posted by otzi View Post
                      It makes sense, and I've seen it first hand in myself. If you keep carbs low, insulin never spikes in response to it and the muscles don't need to remove glucose from the blood as directed by insulin. Then, all your glucose needs get met by the liver making glucose from protein which slowly and steadily leak into your blood, but never spiking like with eating a bunch of starch or sugar.

                      I have watched my FBG go from 80's to 110's over 2 years LC. My FBG was 120 in my SAD days, eating PB w/carbs brought it down to 80's, then I went LC for almost 2 years and it crept up.

                      Now, I've re-introduced carbs and my FBG is 120 some mornings. Post-prandial is low 100's and just before bed, 4 hours after dinner is around 95, but 9 hours later it's at 120.

                      I'm playing a bit with carb timing and notice if I eat just a few at lunch and most at dinner my morning FBG is in the high 90's.

                      I'm hoping this all resolves itself after a few months of steady carbs.
                      Otzi, an occasional carb refeed every week or two is all it should take to prevent this "physiological insulin resistance." All you have to do is remind your body how to properly utilize insulin from time to time. Not that daily carbs are a bad thing necessarily, but I think it doesn't take much to prevent this at all, so it's likely not a huge issue.
                      "The cling and a clang is the metal in my head when I walk. I hear a sort of, this tinging noise - cling clang. The cling clang. So many things happen while walking. The metal in my head clangs and clings as I walk - freaks my balance out. So the natural thought is just clogged up. Totally clogged up. So we need to unplug these dams, and make the the natural flow... It sort of freaks me out. We need to unplug the dams. You cannot stop the natural flow of thought with a cling and a clang..."

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                      • #41
                        DR when you say a re-feed though, how high carb are you talking?
                        And would just sweet potatoes do it?

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                        • #42
                          A refeed can be from any primal-approved carb source. So things like fruit, sweet potatoes, potatoes, squash, ect.

                          I'd say 200-300 grams of carbs on refeed day and get in a really good workout on the day of the refeed as well. That's about it though. Pretty simple. You might have a bit of pain the first time or two you try it since you've been off of carbs for so long, but you'll adjust to it if you make it a part of your routine. Once every two weeks I'd say is plenty. If you workout a TON you might try once a week, but most people don't need that much if the only goal is to stave off physiological insulin resistance.
                          "The cling and a clang is the metal in my head when I walk. I hear a sort of, this tinging noise - cling clang. The cling clang. So many things happen while walking. The metal in my head clangs and clings as I walk - freaks my balance out. So the natural thought is just clogged up. Totally clogged up. So we need to unplug these dams, and make the the natural flow... It sort of freaks me out. We need to unplug the dams. You cannot stop the natural flow of thought with a cling and a clang..."

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                          • #43
                            I don't do much in the way of workouts at the moment.
                            That is a lot of carbs, I think id struggle to make myself eat that.

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                            • #44
                              Originally posted by Ayla2010 View Post
                              I don't do much in the way of workouts at the moment.
                              That is a lot of carbs, I think id struggle to make myself eat that.
                              Yeah, if you don't workout a lot then once every two weeks is MORE than enough. Just make sure you get SOME kind of activity on your refeed day though.

                              And yeah, it's a lot, but you'll get used to it if you make it a part of your routine.

                              The only other option I see is that you could up protein a significant amount on a daily basis which would spur gluconeogenesis which would put insulin into use and keep physiological resistance in check, but I think the carb refeed is the easier option personally.

                              Honestly, I'm not sold on the ketosis option for folks with insulin issues. I'd work them out first before trying out a more advanced technique anyway. You might need to try upping your exercise frequency a bit as well. That will increase insulin sensitivity on its own, independent of whatever dietary changes you begin to make.
                              "The cling and a clang is the metal in my head when I walk. I hear a sort of, this tinging noise - cling clang. The cling clang. So many things happen while walking. The metal in my head clangs and clings as I walk - freaks my balance out. So the natural thought is just clogged up. Totally clogged up. So we need to unplug these dams, and make the the natural flow... It sort of freaks me out. We need to unplug the dams. You cannot stop the natural flow of thought with a cling and a clang..."

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                              • #45
                                Isn't Intermittent Fasting a good method of increasing Insulin Sensitivity?
                                Some of you may die, but that is a risk I'm willing to take.

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