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Eat More Fat! The Nutritional Ketosis Challenge continues...

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  • I think I am going to go with the less restrictive version of his fasting phase (his fasting phase is literally fasting-water only for 3 to 5 days, I am not into it). BUT his less restrictive version is 80%fat, less than 12g of carb (this is going to be difficult for me), and essentially the same protein I have been eating. The idea is to restrict calories though. In the mean time I am ordering one of the monitors.

    I have had 2 cancers in the past, and I am extremely interested in not getting any more. This could literally be a life saver. Thanks for the post!
    Chris
    "Life isn't about waiting for the storm to pass. It is about learning to dance in the rain."
    Unknown

    My journal: http://www.marksdailyapple.com/forum/thread36279.html

    My "Program": doing my version of a 4:3 - 3 day fast diet with real food every day, with a little twist of anti-inflammatory mixed in.

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    • I've noticed better fat loss results when I eat higher fats versus proteins. If I keep proteins at 62g or less, I do very well with losing.
      Georgette

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      • Originally posted by TooSteep View Post
        Hello all:

        I am perplexed. I read "The Art and Science of Low Carbohydrate Performance' a few weeks back, and was very intrigued by the prospects of changing my metabolism, so I embarked on a HFLC diet on Sat Jan 26. Today is day 23.

        Here's what has me perplexed: I have been using a Precision Ultra blood meter to test my ketones daily. Last week from Saturday to Wednesday, I was at 2.1, 2.5, 3.4, 2.5 and 3.2 (some variation in time of day). Suddenly with no change in my diet (I've been logging and eating very similar foods), it dropped to 1.4 on Thursday and Friday, and 0.8 yesterday and today! And yes, I feel particularly weak and tired, since I haven't eaten any carbs.

        Does anyone have an explanation for this? Is this part of the keto-adaptation process? I still have not had the 'aha' moment that others report, even over the time when I was consistently measuring 2.2+. I.e., I haven't felt any positive changes yet, and still suffer from hunger and poor sports performance. The drop in blood ketones is quite surprising to me, since my diet had been 'ketogenic' and it was easy to stay on path I was on, knowing that it might take up to 5 weeks to have an impact. But now I don't even appear to be in ketosis???

        Ideas?
        I'm a little late with my response, but I'm also measuring with the blood ketone monitor. You're getting some GREAT numbers compared to what I have. I've found the biggest difference so far is keeping my fat higher than my protein and keeping my protein under about 80. I haven't experimented yet with lowering the protein significantly but have raised my fat without effecting my carbs much (under 22g) and my numbers are going up. I'm testing first thing in the morning...what about you? Feel free to PM me. This is working for me so I'm just trying to fine tune. 3.2 is AWESOME! The highest I've been is 1.3 this morning when I measured after a run.

        Megan

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        • Okay, so here are the changes that I plan to make based on this new information.

          First a 3-5 day FF at a lower calorie range than usual. As opposed to a full water only fast as recommended by Dr. Seyfried. 1000 cals is recommended FF goal. I am hitting 1200 today.

          Afterwards, I will keep carbs at 20g and set my maximum protein at 60g. This is based on my goal weight of 165 multiplied by .36, the minimum protein amount necessary for that weight. The rest of my cals will be fat. The minimum calorie goal is based on my BMR 1788. I will rachet the fat up and down as needed to a max of 2360 (my BMR plus activity min.).

          Other things: I will supplement sodium up to 5g as recommended by Phinney and Volek based on exhaustion level. I will also strive to drink 100oz of water/ day and keep coffee intake to 24oz or less. I will continue to use artificial sweeteners and hf dairy products.

          *This is how I have decided to use this new info. My N =1. It is not a magic formula. Please read the information and decide for yourself what you need to do.

          **I will post daily weights, blood sugar readings and ketostix results here
          Primal since 9/24/2010
          "Our greatest foes, and whom we must chiefly combat, are within." Miguel de Cervantes

          Created by MyFitnessPal.com - Free Weight Loss Tools
          MFP username: MDAPebbles67

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          • Just a note of caution for anyone doing the fat fast.I did it for 3 days last week (90% fat 1000cals) combining it with 16hr IF & when i weighed today I have lost a grand total of 3lb for the week BUT 1.8lb of that was LBM probably due to the low protein.

            Since Saturday I have been trying to bring my cals back up to 1350 & protein 60g but I have to admit I am struggling to reach the numbers (especially the protein). From my experience it was a great way to realign my approach to food (carbs really are unnecessary & I I have completely gone off all plant based food, I have not been really hungry since I finished it & am eating because I know I need to rather than because I want to) but I was not expecting to lose nearly twice as much lean mass than body fat.

            Just something for you to think about

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            • Originally posted by TooSteep View Post

              The only reference I've found to a drop in levels is on Andreas Eenfeldt's blog at Experiment: Optimal Ketosis for Weight Loss and Improved Performance | DietDoctor.com. For now, I'll just wait it out. I wonder if Dr's Phinney and Volek frequent any forums?/
              Has anyone manged to find the followup post to this? - I'm sure its just my lack of forum experience but this link just poses a question, not the answer

              God, I wish I could afford a ketone blood monitor - it would make all of this much easier

              Comment


              • I would assume the loss of body fat vs LBM is related to how much fat one really needs to lose? Am I completely off base?
                The process is simple: Free your mind, and your ass will follow.

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Ddraig Goch View Post
                  Has anyone manged to find the followup post to this? - I'm sure its just my lack of forum experience but this link just poses a question, not the answer

                  God, I wish I could afford a ketone blood monitor - it would make all of this much easier
                  No. It was so frustrating to be unable to see his results after reading the comments section.
                  Primal since 9/24/2010
                  "Our greatest foes, and whom we must chiefly combat, are within." Miguel de Cervantes

                  Created by MyFitnessPal.com - Free Weight Loss Tools
                  MFP username: MDAPebbles67

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Ddraig Goch View Post
                    Just a note of caution for anyone doing the fat fast.I did it for 3 days last week (90% fat 1000cals) combining it with 16hr IF & when i weighed today I have lost a grand total of 3lb for the week BUT 1.8lb of that was LBM probably due to the low protein.

                    Since Saturday I have been trying to bring my cals back up to 1350 & protein 60g but I have to admit I am struggling to reach the numbers (especially the protein). From my experience it was a great way to realign my approach to food (carbs really are unnecessary & I I have completely gone off all plant based food, I have not been really hungry since I finished it & am eating because I know I need to rather than because I want to) but I was not expecting to lose nearly twice as much lean mass than body fat.

                    Just something for you to think about
                    I think that you are right. The minimum amount of protein necessary for an adult is weight times .36. If I figure that with my goal weight, that is 60g. On the FF one only gets about 15g. Makes me wonder if a FF with 60 g protein, minimal carbs and a lower percentage of fat might be healthier. BUT, then it is not a Fat Fast. Is it?
                    Primal since 9/24/2010
                    "Our greatest foes, and whom we must chiefly combat, are within." Miguel de Cervantes

                    Created by MyFitnessPal.com - Free Weight Loss Tools
                    MFP username: MDAPebbles67

                    Comment


                    • I have no idea how I would keep my protein to 60g and under, but not eat dairy
                      The process is simple: Free your mind, and your ass will follow.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Gladmorning View Post
                        I would assume the loss of body fat vs LBM is related to how much fat one really needs to lose? Am I completely off base?
                        I have 36lb to lose to get to my apparent HSIS weight but I suspect that will still be too high & expect my final weight to be around 4lb lower. To be honest, for the final result I am more interested in BF% than scale weight.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Gladmorning View Post
                          I have no idea how I would keep my protein to 60g and under, but not eat dairy
                          I can do this almost daily and still eat dairy. I just don't get hungry eating this way so for me it works. I average around 52-65g protein.
                          Georgette

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by geostump View Post
                            I can do this almost daily and still eat dairy. I just don't get hungry eating this way so for me it works. I average around 52-65g protein.
                            How has your weight loss been with your protein lower? (if you don't mind sharing)
                            37 yof
                            5'9

                            Macros:
                            70% fat
                            20% protein
                            10% net carbs
                            1300-1500 calories

                            SW:180ish
                            CW:171
                            GW:155

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Pebbles67 View Post
                              I think that you are right. The minimum amount of protein necessary for an adult is weight times .36. If I figure that with my goal weight, that is 60g. On the FF one only gets about 15g. Makes me wonder if a FF with 60 g protein, minimal carbs and a lower percentage of fat might be healthier. BUT, then it is not a Fat Fast. Is it?
                              It depends hat you mean by a fat fast. If you Ignore the low calorie part & just look at upping your fat to 90% (Ie you assume the term to mean taking nearly all of your calories from fat) then the following works:

                              If you assume Pg =60 = 10% of cals, Cg =6 = 1% of cals (carbs taken from eggs & nuts only) that leaves 89% for fat

                              This would give you 238g fat with a total of 2400 cals which I think is round about your BMR + activity

                              Of course you may not want to give up plant matter.

                              For me the numbers would be 50g protein 5g carb & 198g fat giving my a ratio of 10-1-89 & 2000 cals which I think is a bit high for me as my BMR is only 1372 without activity.

                              If I stick with the same Protein & carb levels & drop the fat down to 127g I get a ratio of 14.5-1.5-84 & 1370 cals. So for me I will do this (am not very active at present) & see what happens at the end of the week.

                              PS: Phinney states in his Art & Science of Low Carb Performance that 0.6 x current LBM is the lowest you should go (which for me is 62g). Everyone has their own ideas I guess. This is why it makes it all so confusing & why we have to keep experimenting.
                              Last edited by Ddraig Goch; 02-18-2013, 01:16 PM. Reason: clarification

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                              • The problem for me with any equation that says to figure protein by multiplying any number by current or any LBM, is the difficulty in getting an accurate measure of LBM. Unless you want to invest in a Dexa-scan.
                                Chris
                                "Life isn't about waiting for the storm to pass. It is about learning to dance in the rain."
                                Unknown

                                My journal: http://www.marksdailyapple.com/forum/thread36279.html

                                My "Program": doing my version of a 4:3 - 3 day fast diet with real food every day, with a little twist of anti-inflammatory mixed in.

                                Comment

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