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Eat More Fat! The Nutritional Ketosis Challenge continues...

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  • Hi everybody,

    I have just started eating for nutritional ketosis, today is day 5. I'm a novice ultra runner who also likes to lift heavy things. For the last 5 months, I've been running 40-50 miles a week on trails (with up to 7 or 8 of those miles being some combination of sprints, hill sprints, or just general faster than easy runs, but mostly I run at a pace where I can not only converse but can recite monologues ) and doing crossfit/ lifting heavy things 3-5 days a week. So physically I am in pretty good shape, but I feel like I am constantly fighting the urge to eat more carbs and I know from experience that if I do I'll rapidly gain weight.

    Previously:
    My diet for the last 5 years has been fairly close to primal or paleo ... basically I've been eating real whole foods. I was eating 100-200g daily carbs (rice, sweat potatoes, veggies) with weekly carb binges of 400+ carbs (on long run/ race days, typically includes "bad" stuff like pizza) and around 150g of protein a day, and have been able to maintain my current weight- 155 lbs at 5'4"- for the last 2 years (I was 200lbs 5 years ago). But I struggle to keep myself from eating enormous amounts of carbs. And I am tired to constantly fighting this. And yes I am totally aware that I would likely thin out and lose a lot of my carb cravings if I quit running but there is something about running through the woods that satisfies me in a way nothing else has.

    Goals:
    After reading a bunch on Peter Attria's website I'm interested in seeing how well I do in nutritional ketosis. I already run fairly well on "low" (for a distance runner) amounts of carbs, but I'd really like to lose 10-15? lbs, and not need a constant influx of sugar when racing. Since my preferred distance is the 50k (~32 miles), which for me is currently a 6-8 hour fairly low intensity endeavor, I think this may work well for me. And I hope it will lessen the intestinal issues I sometimes have while running. I won't be racing over the summer, just base building, so I figure this is a good time to experiment.

    So far:
    I'm eating 30-40g total carbs a day... except for 2 days ago when I was oddly ravenous and ate 3600 cal (which added up to 80g carbs, though the ratios were pretty good I think at 80F, 8C, 12P)
    Protein is ~70-80g per day
    Total calories eating as much as I want: 2000-2300 with that one day at 3600.
    I was feeling pretty tired, but not today! I am actually having a little trouble sitting still.
    So far I am still running well. My easy pace is a little slower than usual, but that may be partly due to highish heat and humidity.

    Stuff I am trying to figure out:
    I'm not sure how much sodium I need. It is hot and humid here so I lose a lot through sweat, but even drinking a glass of broth I'm under 3000mg sodium (according to FitDay where I am tracking everything I eat). I was feeling weird until I added the broth, but I'm not sure how to tell if I need more.

    I intend to eat as much as I want, but I need to figure out what to do on days I eat a lot to stay under 50 carbs and not over do the protein. Any yummy, filling, fat only snack ideas?

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    • Welcome!

      Stuff I am trying to figure out:
      I'm not sure how much sodium I need. It is hot and humid here so I lose a lot through sweat, but even drinking a glass of broth I'm under 3000mg sodium (according to FitDay where I am tracking everything I eat). I was feeling weird until I added the broth, but I'm not sure how to tell if I need more.

      I intend to eat as much as I want, but I need to figure out what to do on days I eat a lot to stay under 50 carbs and not over do the protein. Any yummy, filling, fat only snack ideas?
      I have found it's trial & error as far as sodium/potassium and magnesium, since our needs are so individual.

      What works for me is to salt all my cooked food with sea salt, 400 mg Magnesium before bed and bone broth a few times a week. I can't eat much fruit due to FODMAPS-intolerance, but if you can, avocados are a decent source of potassium (and fat!) Or bananas pre-exercise would work.

      If you need a bit more boost in your carbs as you transition, worry not! Just eat them before a run/workout and your blood glucose won't be spiked so much.

      Some folk do better dropping the carbs cold turkey, others need more of a transition, or they tend to binge.

      I eat a lot of brie, iced creamy cocoa (cream with coco, sweetener to taste), and paté. I would eat avocado/guacamole if I could!

      Oh and here's Peter @ Hyperlipid's chocolate butter recipe (UK measurements!):
      One 100gm chocolate bar (85% or 90%), One 250gm block of economy butter, 45ml double cream, 15 or 30ml honey and some vanilla. Melt, pour in to an ice cube tray, freeze, pop out of tray while frozen, keep in fridge until consumed, not very long...
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      • Thanks!

        I already eat an avocado a day... yummmm... love avocados. Cheese tends to cause me problems, but cream doesn't. The creamy cocoa sounds both awesome and easy. I'm going to have to try that.

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        • Ok my story 54 yo Male here.......... been doing this about a month now. Initial weight loss of 5 lbs. yoyo around still at the same weight.

          Very sedentary..... 10 to 13 hrs a day at a desk 6 days a week. I don't have much time or energy to do anything after work....

          Using MY Plate to track foods, been 150 grams fat, 75 grams protein and under 50 with carbs. What gives?

          Any suggestions guys or gals? Weight loss seems difficult if not impossible with just diet change and no increase in exercise.

          Seems making a living is getting in the way of having a life.
          Last edited by DBMX925; 06-11-2013, 02:55 AM.

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          • I finally took my free nova max ketone blood meter out of the box...i got a reading of 4.0...there is no guideline in the kit (except for ketoacidosis)...can anyone give me guidance on what this means...tx

            Sent from my PG06100 using Marks Daily Apple Forum mobile app

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            • Originally posted by DBMX925 View Post
              Ok my story 54 yo Male here.......... been doing this about a month now. Initial weight loss of 5 lbs. yoyo around still at the same weight.

              Very sedentary..... 10 to 13 hrs a day at a desk 6 days a week. I don't have much time or energy to do anything after work....

              Using MY Plate to track foods, been 150 grams fat, 75 grams protein and under 50 with carbs. What gives?

              Any suggestions guys or gals? Weight loss seems difficult if not impossible with just diet change and no increase in exercise.

              Seems making a living is getting in the way of having a life.
              Your calories seem a bit low for a man, how tall are you? Weight?

              You may not be eating enough. And your protein could be too high. How did you figure it?

              Can you work in some gentle walking? It's a great way to ramp up your metabolism. Getting a pedometer and wearing it all day with the goal of 10,000 steps is a way to encourage more movement.

              My body weight workout takes me 15 min once a week. Check out the free PB Fitness PDF on the Blog page.
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              • Originally posted by aprimalmomma View Post
                I finally took my free nova max ketone blood meter out of the box...i got a reading of 4.0...there is no guideline in the kit (except for ketoacidosis)...can anyone give me guidance on what this means...tx

                Sent from my PG06100 using Marks Daily Apple Forum mobile app
                For keto diets or fasting, the range seems to be .5mmol to 5.0 mmol. So you are doing great!

                Here's a link with more info: Ketones
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                • 5'11" 245 around 2000 calories a day, not losing because to low calories? I've read about that, I'll check out the fitness page.

                  Thanks

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                  • So last nite I had what I'd like to call a caloric readjustment...I ate about 800-1000c over what I had been doing...but basically all meat and fat...3tb butter 4 sausage meatballs, 2 hb eggs, some pork rinds, handful of almonts, 2tb cream...just couldnt find satiety...

                    I'm up 2lbs today but I keep telling myself that 1k xtra calories doesn't a 2lb fat gain make and this is probably just bloat and since I'm eating normally at a 300-400 cal deficit, it relly is only 700ish cal over...wondering why I felt such a lack of satiety but maybe undereating and if I divide these cal over 7 days maybe I need to up my daily allotment by 100-150...dont know...most days the 1100-1200 range feels fine...

                    Do those of you who are keto adapted and have decreased appetites ever experience days like this?

                    Yesterday blood ketones were 4.0...today 1.3 : (
                    Sent from my PG06100 using Marks Daily Apple Forum mobile app

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                    • Aprilmomma, right before my period, I am always insatiable! I go with it and keep my carbs down. It all melts off as soon as my hormones shift and my period starts.

                      Yeah, the extra protein could have been the factor in lowering your ketones. Also, once you are keto-adapted, your body will be more efficient at using those ketones and your number will go down anyway.
                      Last edited by Dragonfly; 06-13-2013, 08:18 AM.
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                      • So I've been trying to analyze why I completely overate the other day...and I keep going back to the Vitamin D connection...getting daily sun seemed to cut my binge urge for almost 2.5 weeks and the past week has been very rainy and I haven't gotten any sun since Saturday so it make sense that by Wed maybe I was running low...I'm going to get a vitamin d supplement and see if it helps for days that I can't get any natural sunlight...sun seemed like the only factor that changed my need to eat a crapton every 2-3 days and I think I accidentally tested and reconfirmed this n=1 theory with a strong of rainy days and the the eating urge...doesn't anyone else notice this connection?

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                        • Aprilmomma , I keep my D3 level on the high end of normal to keep my asthma symptoms away, so I don't have your particular experience, but I do know how powerful D3 is.

                          It helps with blood glucose control, among many things, so it makes sense that it would help with cravings.

                          Get your blood level tested! Optimal is 50-60 ng/ml. Sounds like you are deficient, if just a few days without sun can throw you off. Lots of info at www.vitamindcouncil.org
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                          • I've been thinking of going keto. I am 31, 6'1" and weigh 103 kg. I am a male. If I take the percentages from the first post

                            Protein: 86 + 10% = 95 grams
                            Carbs: 86 / 2 = 43 grams (this is going to suck)
                            Fats: 86 x 2 = 172 grams

                            BMR: 2197
                            I plan on being sedentary until my body adjusts.

                            Also, should I carb refeed every one or two weeks to replenish glycogen and reignite metabolism to avoid a plateau?
                            Last edited by Paleo0731; 06-29-2013, 02:01 AM.

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                            • Personally, I wouldn't do a carb refeed during adaptation, if at all. It's really not necessary and will just slow down adaptation and weight loss.

                              And don't count calories! Just eat until barely full most days and then have a day every other week where you really chow down, while staying in keto.

                              The Protein Power blog has a great 2part low carb tips that is a must-read:

                              http://www.proteinpower.com/drmike/k...low-carb-pt-i/
                              http://www.proteinpower.com/drmike/s...ow-carb-pt-ii/

                              Read more about ketosis at Peter Attia's brilliant blog at Eating Academy here:

                              Nutrition & Health Archives « The Eating Academy | Peter Attia, M.D. The Eating Academy | Peter Attia, M.D.
                              Last edited by Dragonfly; 06-29-2013, 05:40 AM.
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                              • I agree with Dragonfly, based more on Phinney & Volek's books. They indicate that yes, you can switch back and forth between sugar burning and fat burning quickly (good thing, since otherwise we'd be very dead very quickly). But ketosis takes longer - the body doesn't switch into this separate metabolic pathway quickly, but rather takes 2-3 weeks to do it. Whether that's the time to cascade a series of signals, each enabling a shift, I don't know. But that's their guidance, and they've been living with and researching ketosis for years.

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