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Eat More Fat! The Nutritional Ketosis Challenge continues...

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  • Originally posted by dob View Post
    dkjames, if you don't mind, could you expand on tuning your fat intake with your personal experience. I read that you are in weight maintenance and eat a lot of fat now, but when you were losing weight, what did you do specifically?

    Thanks
    Well, that's sort of straightforward: caloric deficit on a ketogenic diet So move your butt a lot or eat little fat (while keeping carbs super low and protein moderate so you don't eat up your muscles).

    Comment


    • marissalinnea, I think you were looking for other type of websites to track your calories. I personally use calorie count from about.com to track my calories. There are RDA settings, which can be customized by percentages.

      I wouldn't worry to much about your protein. It takes time to adapt to this WOE. Keep constant and see what happens. If it doesn't work, adjust by removing some protein. . Everyone reacts differently and maybe having higher levels of protein works for your body. It took me three weeks before i was able to get my protein down to 15% of my total calories. Hopefully, when my body is fully fat adapted I can start inching my protein up a bit to gain muscle for body comp adjustments. You're doing great. You're making progress and that's what counts. I found the mental game always harder. When I began with atkins and began the induction phase, I was scrambling and was frustrated. But after a couple weeks, it became easier and easier.

      Pebbles, thanks for starting this thread. You provide a lot of great info.
      Nutritional Ketosis Journal - http://dobnk.blogspot.com/ and http://www.marksdailyapple.com/forum/thread83999.html

      Comment


      • "So move your butt a lot or eat little fat" Sorry dkJames, but this statement concerns me. I'm afraid someone is going to read what you are writing and misunderstand.

        NK plans are never meant to be "low fat" no matter whether you are losing or in maintenance. The fat helps with energy and satiety.

        For example, here is a 1200 calorie day for me. I eat 20 g carb + 60g protein or 320 cals. That leaves 880 calories for fat, 97grams, or 73% of calories.

        So the P & V recommendation of 65%-85% fat still bears out.

        When I am eating to my BMR of 1700, I usually have about 75g protein and fat moves up between 75% and 80%. Carbs always stay low.

        Yes I always run a calorie deficit, but the program is low carb, moderate protein and high fat as most NK experts recommend.
        Primal since 9/24/2010
        "Our greatest foes, and whom we must chiefly combat, are within." Miguel de Cervantes

        Created by MyFitnessPal.com - Free Weight Loss Tools
        MFP username: MDAPebbles67

        Comment


        • Poor expression from my part, I reckon.
          I meant to not stuff yourself with fat if you want to lose fat on a ketogenic diet. You must let your body use its fat store. If you are on weight maintenance, a ketogenic diet with more fat than on weight loss mode is a great WOE!

          Let's take your example:
          - keep the 20g carbs + 60g proteins CONSTANT
          - tune up or down the fat intake (say 60% of kCal for weight loss, 80+ % for weight maintenance)
          The caloric deficit must come from fat, at carbs + proteins maintained constant. Fat is the regulator for weight loss. Note that I implicitly mean that you are not interested in muscle gain (lean body weight gain), which is more regulated by protein / physical activity. And all these factors are not independent variables. So to make it simple, ignore muscle gain for some time, and drop your body fat by going on a slightly caloric deficit ketogenic diet by adjusting your fat intake at carbs and proteins constant.

          Comment


          • Yes, this is the battle I currently fight. I exercise way too much to consistently eat at the 50-60g protein level. That is why I cycle protein up and down based on activity and cravings which I have found is my body's way of telling me to eat more protein. I also supplement amino acids to try and keep a balance.

            Thanks for the clarification.
            Primal since 9/24/2010
            "Our greatest foes, and whom we must chiefly combat, are within." Miguel de Cervantes

            Created by MyFitnessPal.com - Free Weight Loss Tools
            MFP username: MDAPebbles67

            Comment


            • wow this is all been so helpful. I realize my mistake was not using a lower weight for goal than where i'm currently at...and i started GAINING weight. egads. SO i just adjusted to 140# goal weight and redid my macros. In fact, Pebbles, you calculated 140 for someone and it was SO HELPFUL!

              I find the challenge in thinking of meals - balancing them - and figuring this out on the fly (like traveling). What are some go to menu ideas people use? I find a big ass green salad (simple greens, cukes etc.) and a dressing is great for fillig up and not eating up all your percentages.

              Another question--if you FAT falls below your goal (eg. goal is 127 but you eat 80-90) will that throw you off or be counterproductive? If you eat too low fat (by accident) are you stalling your fat burning engines? I find it challenging to squeeze in so much fat and i'm doing bulletproof coffee each morning. and am generous w/coconut oil for cooking.

              CHeers,
              RED

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Red View Post
                wow this is all been so helpful. I realize my mistake was not using a lower weight for goal than where i'm currently at...and i started GAINING weight. egads. SO i just adjusted to 140# goal weight and redid my macros. In fact, Pebbles, you calculated 140 for someone and it was SO HELPFUL!

                I find the challenge in thinking of meals - balancing them - and figuring this out on the fly (like traveling). What are some go to menu ideas people use? I find a big ass green salad (simple greens, cukes etc.) and a dressing is great for fillig up and not eating up all your percentages.

                Another question--if you FAT falls below your goal (eg. goal is 127 but you eat 80-90) will that throw you off or be counterproductive? If you eat too low fat (by accident) are you stalling your fat burning engines? I find it challenging to squeeze in so much fat and i'm doing bulletproof coffee each morning. and am generous w/coconut oil for cooking.

                CHeers,
                RED
                Red, if your fat intake falls below your goal, but your carb and protein intakes are the same as they used to be (low enough to be ketogenic), then your body will have to use its fat store if you happen to need more energy than you ate. If your goal is to lose body fat, regardless of any other goal, keep in ketosis but adjust your fat down a little (60% of total Cal intake instead of full blown 80-85%).
                To be in ketosis is not necessarily eating tons of fat but to keep insulin level down all the time. This forces the use of adipose mass to fuel yourself. The protein requirement must match your physical activity: eat too much and gluconeogenesis will produce glucose out of excess proteins, eat too little and your muscle will be used for glucose (brain needs). But that's the beauty of ketosis, you shouldn't have to eat up your muscle mass. You regulate your fat loss by how much fat you eat and your physical activity (slow pace is mostly fat-burning).

                Comment


                • ^Agreed

                  Just try not to end up consistently below 60% fat because you might begin to crave things you should not eat. So says the woman with a binge eating disorder.
                  Also the higher fat level along with low carb and moderate protein is part of the mechanism for getting into NK.

                  On the Bullet Proof Coffee...Several months in, I find it is best to eat real food rather than force in extra fat. I do put fat in my coffee, but no where near the volume I was adding when trying to get to 80% fat intake.
                  Last edited by Pebbles67; 04-28-2013, 01:00 PM.
                  Primal since 9/24/2010
                  "Our greatest foes, and whom we must chiefly combat, are within." Miguel de Cervantes

                  Created by MyFitnessPal.com - Free Weight Loss Tools
                  MFP username: MDAPebbles67

                  Comment


                  • Pebbles67, thanks for having DKjames clarify and DKjames thanks for the clarification.

                    So my macros are approximately 80/15/5% (+/- 1-2%) at 2,200 calories. My BMR at my current weight of 211 is 2,068 and I'm in the light activity range according to the Harris Benedict calc, which means I multiply my BMR by 1.375 for 2,844 Kcals. I would like to at least the average BMI range, which means I would need to weight 185 lbs. At 185 lbs, I would need 2,621 Kcals. So are you saying that if I want to lose body fat, i would need my calories to be at 20% of 2,621 and maintain my protein and carb intake as though I was eating 2,621 and eat less fat as long as my fat consumption is greater than 60%?

                    Pebbles, since you eliminated bullet proof coffee, what are eating to compensate? I just find that drinking BP coffee of some sort gives me a morning jolt and allows me to meet my fat intake without taking shots of oil in the evening. Thanks
                    Nutritional Ketosis Journal - http://dobnk.blogspot.com/ and http://www.marksdailyapple.com/forum/thread83999.html

                    Comment


                    • If BPC works for you than use it. I find I am happier between 70 and 75% fat. At one point, I was having 2 BPCs a day, but not much else. My calories top out at 1800 usually, so that much BPC for some people does not leave enough room for real food. I am cooking with healthy fats and eating fatty meats.

                      Yes, you should eat below your BMR plus activity. 20% is a good amount. You will have to experiment with macro levels to find the right combo for your body within the recommended ranges for Nutritional Ketosis.
                      Primal since 9/24/2010
                      "Our greatest foes, and whom we must chiefly combat, are within." Miguel de Cervantes

                      Created by MyFitnessPal.com - Free Weight Loss Tools
                      MFP username: MDAPebbles67

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Pebbles67 View Post
                        If BPC works for you than use it. I find I am happier between 70 and 75% fat. At one point, I was having 2 BPCs a day, but not much else. My calories top out at 1800 usually, so that much BPC for some people does not leave enough room for real food. I am cooking with healthy fats and eating fatty meats.

                        Yes, you should eat below your BMR plus activity. 20% is a good amount. You will have to experiment with macro levels to find the right combo for your body within the recommended ranges for Nutritional Ketosis.
                        Not really sure it works for me, but I do love that morning kick.

                        Hopefully Coco Puff doesn't make his way over to this thread, but do you buy into the CICO theory? it's been up for debate lately? If I don't see my body comp change then i'm going to lower my total caloric intake by eliminating some fat calories. I'll test it out for a couple weeks and see where I end up.

                        Thanks Pebbles.
                        Nutritional Ketosis Journal - http://dobnk.blogspot.com/ and http://www.marksdailyapple.com/forum/thread83999.html

                        Comment


                        • Does eating 70-80% fat matter as long as you are in a caloric deficit? I think I'm around 70, but always eating at a deficit.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by MarissaLinnea View Post
                            Does eating 70-80% fat matter as long as you are in a caloric deficit? I think I'm around 70, but always eating at a deficit.
                            It starts to matter if you are in a deficit of proteins / if you eat too much fat when your goal is weight loss / etc. So looking at the percentage is maybe not the ideal thing. Look at the absolute amount of carbs (< 30g) and proteins (~ 1g / kg of LBM and that one depends on your physical activity, how much you wear out your muscle). Once you have those absolute figures for carb and proteins, adjust your fat depending on your goals: weight loss ? deficit - otherwise, plenty of it for maintenance. I wouldn't say too much of it because it is hard to abuse of dietary fat amount when you are eating so little carbs and moderate proteins.

                            Comment


                            • I guess (for me) I believe in both CICO and the quality of calories. I always try to eat below my BMR plus activity, but to be fair, there are people here who overeat calories and still lose weight. I used to lose weight on programs like Weight Watchers too, which are all about CICO, but I was eating wheat and processed foods.

                              2.5 years into my Primal journey, I am still trying to find my magic bullet. Even with success on lchf, I still have very bad binge episodes. I am one of those people who was raised by morbidly obese parents. My metabolism is very screwed up and being perimenopausal does not help. Ah, but those are my issues.
                              Primal since 9/24/2010
                              "Our greatest foes, and whom we must chiefly combat, are within." Miguel de Cervantes

                              Created by MyFitnessPal.com - Free Weight Loss Tools
                              MFP username: MDAPebbles67

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by dob View Post
                                Not really sure it works for me, but I do love that morning kick.

                                Hopefully Coco Puff doesn't make his way over to this thread, but do you buy into the CICO theory? it's been up for debate lately? If I don't see my body comp change then i'm going to lower my total caloric intake by eliminating some fat calories. I'll test it out for a couple weeks and see where I end up.

                                Thanks Pebbles.
                                I personally do believe in the CICO theory no matter what you are doing. To me it just makes sense that if you eat more calories than you use in the day, anything extra will go to storage no matter what it is, fats, proteins or carbs.

                                Originally posted by dkJames View Post
                                It starts to matter if you are in a deficit of proteins / if you eat too much fat when your goal is weight loss / etc. So looking at the percentage is maybe not the ideal thing. Look at the absolute amount of carbs (< 30g) and proteins (~ 1g / kg of LBM and that one depends on your physical activity, how much you wear out your muscle). Once you have those absolute figures for carb and proteins, adjust your fat depending on your goals: weight loss ? deficit - otherwise, plenty of it for maintenance. I wouldn't say too much of it because it is hard to abuse of dietary fat amount when you are eating so little carbs and moderate proteins.
                                I used the calculator on this thread to figure out what and how much I should be eating. So I should be good then....right? I mean, clothes are already feeling looser (could just be from loss of water retention though) but I'm eating most days around my BMR and have found that I don't need to snack anymore now that I'm in ketosis. I usually have calories leftover for the day and I have mine set at 1600. I never have proteins left to eat, it's always fat and carbs that are leftover. So I'm assuming I'm doing good then.

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