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Eat More Fat! The Nutritional Ketosis Challenge continues...

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  • Thanks for the explanation. Some self experimenting is not a bad thing and can be very interesting. Eating beneath BMR (not just calculated but actual) for too long will of course lead to death.
    Some of you may die, but that is a risk I'm willing to take.

    Comment


    • DG,

      -Most nk/paleo experts exclude butter as dairy due to the lack of lactose, but one could use ghee if it is an issue.

      -I thought that yesterday in your post about the keto calculator you said that you do not exercise. Sorry.

      -When you couldn't lose over 1200 cals, were you doing keto?
      Primal since 9/24/2010
      "Our greatest foes, and whom we must chiefly combat, are within." Miguel de Cervantes

      Created by MyFitnessPal.com - Free Weight Loss Tools
      MFP username: MDAPebbles67

      Comment


      • Originally posted by demuralist View Post
        DG, wasn't the beginning of your N=1 more successful as far as fat loss is concerned? Do you think you have gotten into NK at all, even at the "lowest" level?
        Yes I lost 4 lb in week 1 & 2 lb in week 2. The only thing I have done differently is drop cream half way through week 3 & fell into the nuts & butter one night (but cals still only 2000 cals). I compensated for that yesterday with a low cal day (JUDDD DD?). This why I don’t understand the gain & am at loss as to what top do now.

        P&V (and others) say NK is based on low cals ( <10g is my norm) & moderate protein (I have not gone >49g) so I assume I am in NK. Ketostix don’t work with me I probably drink too much so I can’t be sure but without buying a ketone monitor (not a possibility right now) I have done the best I can.



        Originally posted by demuralist View Post
        If you do an average for the week of your calories/macros what numbers do you come up with? I believe that the body is not so much receptive (at least regarding fat loss) on a daily basis as on average over time.
        I agree so have been measure daily to get the trend. Figures since I began my n=1 3 weeks ago are:

        Date Cals 5 day moving average C Wt 5 day moving average Diff Wk Tot
        Day 1 1170 174.43 0.0 -
        Day 2 1175 174.43 173.5 0.0 -
        Day 3 1046 173.74 173.8 -0.7 -
        Day 4 1126 172.62 173.9 -1.1 -
        Day 5 979 1099.2 171.32 173.3 -1.3 -
        Day 6 1114 1088.0 170.63 172.5 -0.7 -
        Day 7 1287 1110.4 169.57 171.6 -1.1 -4.85
        Day 8 1159 1133.0 170.44 170.9 0.9 -
        Day 9 1150 1137.8 169.14 170.2 -1.3 -
        Day 10 918 1125.6 168.02 169.6 -1.1 -
        Day 11 1021 1107.0 168.64 169.2 0.6 -
        Day 12 1241 1097.8 168.20 168.9 -0.4 -
        Day 13 1310 1128.0 168.02 168.4 -0.2 -
        Day 14 1122 1122.4 168.20 168.2 0.2 -1.37
        Day 15 1186 1176.0 168.89 168.4 0.7 -
        Day 16 1413 1254.4 168.64 168.4 -0.2 -
        Day 17 1150 1236.2 168.64 168.5 0.0 -
        Day 18 2007 1375.6 168.45 168.6 -0.2 -
        Day 19 1047 1360.6 169.57 168.8 1.1 -
        Day 20 601 1243.6 170.94 169.2 1.4 -
        Day 21 724 1105.8 170.82 169.7 -0.1 2.61
        Week 1 Average: Cals: 1129 Protein :45g Ratio: Av % (16-2-82) Total Loss since start of n=-1: -4lb
        Weight: 170lb Loss: -4 BMI: 27.39 BF (BIA): 40% Water: 42.7% LBM: 56.5% LBM:102lb

        Week 2 Average: Cals: 1132 Protein :46g Ratio: Av % (16-2-82) Total Loss since start of n=-1: -6lb
        Weight: 168lb Loss: -2 BMI: 27.03 BF (BIA): 39.3% Water: 43.2% LBM: 57.2% LBM:102lb

        Week 3 Average: Cals: 1162 Protein :47g Ratio: Av % (16-2-82) Total Loss since start of n=-1: -6lb
        Weight: 171lb Loss: +3 BMI: 27.45 BF (BIA): 40.4% Water: 42.4% LBM: 56.1% LBM:101.9lb

        UPDATE: Week 3 averages were incorrect. They have been updated with the correct numbers
        Last edited by Ddraig Goch; 03-17-2013, 09:01 AM. Reason: wk 3 averages incorrect

        Comment


        • Originally posted by Black Timber View Post
          Thanks for the explanation. Some self experimenting is not a bad thing and can be very interesting. Eating beneath BMR (not just calculated but actual) for too long will of course lead to death.
          Well if that were true, then anyone on a 1200 calorie diet long term would have died long ago. What do you mean by actual? When we say BMR here, we mean the calories you would burn in a coma as calculated by a BMR calculator.

          My BMR by calculator is 1749. My actual TDEE measured by the Go Wear Fit varies between 2500 and 2800 cals depending on exercise.
          Primal since 9/24/2010
          "Our greatest foes, and whom we must chiefly combat, are within." Miguel de Cervantes

          Created by MyFitnessPal.com - Free Weight Loss Tools
          MFP username: MDAPebbles67

          Comment


          • Originally posted by 252dlp View Post
            Geo, admittedly, it's a lot less frustration for ME because I don't have anyone else to think about. Wish I could help you.
            If I didn't have anyone else to consider or only one other person, this would be a piece of cake. Plus, I like cooking.
            Georgette

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Pebbles67 View Post
              DG,

              -Most nk/paleo experts exclude butter as dairy due to the lack of lactose, but one could use ghee if it is an issue.

              -I thought that yesterday in your post about the keto calculator you said that you do not exercise. Sorry.

              -When you couldn't lose over 1200 cals, were you doing keto?

              1) Butter is not an issue as far as I know I was just curious

              2) As I said above I don't assume walking to be exercise. It's just something I do every day as part of my job

              3) Yes. When I started keto I just concentrated on the protein amount & eating more fat without bothering too much with the calories (wk 1 av 1350 lost 7lb, wk 2 av 1450 gained 2lb, wk 3 av 1180 lost 3lb, wk 4 av don't know but > 1300 gained 2lb). Hence my n=1

              I will happily eat 1300 cals & 55g of protein if you think this will work. This will give me macros of 17-3-80 which macro wise is not much different from the 16-2-82 I have been eating over the last 3 weeks. I just don't want to put on any more weight
              Last edited by Ddraig Goch; 03-17-2013, 07:33 AM.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Pebbles67 View Post
                Since the beginning, I have been the person pushing people to eat at BMR or above. IMO Many people on this thread have fallen into the trap of eating too little. Eating at BMR and even a little above has worked for me. I have often annoyed people on here by harping on this.

                I have recently been reading that you can safely eat up to 20% below BMR If you have a well formulated keto program. This would include the right amount of protein and carb (for you) and at least 65% fat. When I follow the low recommendation of protein for me, limit my carbs to 20 and still eat 75% fat, that naturally puts me at 20% below BMR.

                So in conclusion, we are not recommending anything. We are all just doing self experimentation and reporting the results.

                The 'Optimal Diet' formula in the first post will actually have most people eating at or above BMR, with a good amount of protein and 75% fat. That is where I recommend that people start and what I will likely return to once my 30 day experiment is over.
                In regards to eating at BMR, I have only recently been able to start eating up near or at BMR following NK.

                So dairy is a no-no? Not what I wanted to hear. I could cut back on it but cutting it out completely would stress me to no end. Plus it would make cooking that much more difficult for me.
                Georgette

                Comment


                • so, DG, when I look at your numbers what I see is that in 3 weeks you have lost 6 pounds of fat since you managed to keep your LBM the same. That would seem to me to be exactly what you want to do. Have you done any measurements?

                  While for me I would consider those calories way too low at that weight, they actually seem to be working for you, right?
                  Chris
                  "Life isn't about waiting for the storm to pass. It is about learning to dance in the rain."
                  Unknown

                  My journal: http://www.marksdailyapple.com/forum/thread36279.html

                  My "Program": doing my version of a 4:3 - 3 day fast diet with real food every day, with a little twist of anti-inflammatory mixed in.

                  Comment


                  • Just a reminder, that you can't expect to lose weight every week, or even in a regular progression. There will be jumps and stalls. Why not go back to a repetition of your first two weeks, though? Maybe that cream was good for you!

                    Comment


                    • Ok, I have to say I am, so far, really loving this Up Day/Down Day stuff. Even staying within my macro percentages, being able to add in a few things that I had to drop in order to hit the numbers is really nice. ie. for my breakfast I added a couple of strawberries to my smoothie, and at lunch I can add back in an ounce of gouda, I may even be able to add a little treat at the end of the day depending on what I make for dinner. It feels so much less restrictive, and yesterday was actually pretty easy.

                      Oddly, after my up day, I woke up hungry-thus was worried if I would be able to pull off a down day. But woke up after a down day and did not feel like eating breakfast for about 3 hours. Weird.
                      Chris
                      "Life isn't about waiting for the storm to pass. It is about learning to dance in the rain."
                      Unknown

                      My journal: http://www.marksdailyapple.com/forum/thread36279.html

                      My "Program": doing my version of a 4:3 - 3 day fast diet with real food every day, with a little twist of anti-inflammatory mixed in.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Ddraig Goch View Post
                        I will happily eat 1300 cals & 55g of protein if you think this will work. This will give me macros of 17-3-80 which macro wise is not much different from the 16-2-82 I have been eating over the last 3 weeks. I just don't want to put on any more weight
                        Whether it will work or not is for you to discover. I was just making suggestions that might help, but as we know what works one week, does not always work the next. Moreover, what works for one does not work for another. GRRR. hate this weight loss crap.
                        Primal since 9/24/2010
                        "Our greatest foes, and whom we must chiefly combat, are within." Miguel de Cervantes

                        Created by MyFitnessPal.com - Free Weight Loss Tools
                        MFP username: MDAPebbles67

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by geostump View Post
                          So dairy is a no-no? Not what I wanted to hear. I could cut back on it but cutting it out completely would stress me to no end. Plus it would make cooking that much more difficult for me.
                          No. I think that dairy may be a no,no for me. I'm not speaking to anyone else's program. You have lost very well on NK with dairy. Whereas, I only lost 3 lbs in February after an 18lb loss in January which was at least half water. I was also heading for a low loss in March. I am just checking out all possibilities.
                          Primal since 9/24/2010
                          "Our greatest foes, and whom we must chiefly combat, are within." Miguel de Cervantes

                          Created by MyFitnessPal.com - Free Weight Loss Tools
                          MFP username: MDAPebbles67

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Pebbles67 View Post
                            I have lost 3.5 lbs in the two days since I started the new macros, dropped dairy and artificial sweeteners. I only dropped calories by 500, so it is not just a case of cals in and out.

                            My new macros 75%/20%/5% 1400 cals (20% below BMR)
                            congrats!! Watch your calories.. I know when I went too low, I stalled.

                            Originally posted by Sabine View Post
                            Just a reminder, that you can't expect to lose weight every week, or even in a regular progression. There will be jumps and stalls. Why not go back to a repetition of your first two weeks, though? Maybe that cream was good for you!
                            Thank you for this. It is an important reminder. It IS frustrating when the scales or tape do not show a loss every week but we need to LEARN to take it in stride. Easier said than done
                            Karin


                            Created by MyFitnessPal.com - Free Calorie Counter

                            What am I doing? Depends on the day.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by athomeontherange View Post
                              congrats!! Watch your calories.. I know when I went too low, I stalled.
                              Agreed. For that reason, I am following this experiment very carefully and precisely for a 30 day period. I have also dropped all non food calories (BPC) except for 1 TBSP CO in my am coffee. Therefore I am using all of my 1400 cals for real food.
                              Primal since 9/24/2010
                              "Our greatest foes, and whom we must chiefly combat, are within." Miguel de Cervantes

                              Created by MyFitnessPal.com - Free Weight Loss Tools
                              MFP username: MDAPebbles67

                              Comment


                              • My BMR is 1587 according to the keto chart. I am eating anywhere between 1550-1430 kcals daily. I'm still working on getting at least 3 workouts in a week. I'm figuring I need to get up between 5-530AM to get a workout in.

                                Glad I really don't have to give up dairy. I have this feeling that eating it keeps me sane.
                                Georgette

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