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Eat More Fat! The Nutritional Ketosis Challenge continues...

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  • Originally posted by Pebbles67 View Post
    LOL I was wondering why you were responding to me about dairy. I said I looked at your diary on MFP. I was commenting that you are in general eating under your calorie goal. Your fat percentage for the last week was 71%-77%. Excellent. When I eat 60-70g of protein and keep fat at 75% or below, my calories are under 1400, which is much less than I have been eating.
    Oh duh! Diary, dairy...same difference ;-) I'm almost afraid to eat any variation of my menu last week since whatever I was doing was working. I really think for ME, the skipping of the middle meal makes the 60-70g of protein more attainable. Eating 3 meals a day makes it tough for me not to go over my protein. I'm also adding just a tad bit of coconut oil to my little evening nut butter concoction and I think that helps keep the digestion tract moving. ;-)

    Comment


    • Well, don't change anything because I am copying you. Just Kidding.

      I may in the end have to admit that eating below BMR is the way to go. I lost 1.5 lbs after my first day on lower calorie after gaining this last week eating 10% above BMR.
      Primal since 9/24/2010
      "Our greatest foes, and whom we must chiefly combat, are within." Miguel de Cervantes

      Created by MyFitnessPal.com - Free Weight Loss Tools
      MFP username: MDAPebbles67

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Pebbles67 View Post
        Well, don't change anything because I am copying you. Just Kidding.

        I may in the end have to admit that eating below BMR is the way to go. I lost 1.5 lbs after my first day on lower calorie after gaining this last week eating 10% above BMR.
        Copy away! It seems like our bodies work similarly. My calculated BMR has never ever been close to being correct. Has anyone felt the same? Maybe once my metabolism is fixed, but not right now.

        I saw the 1.5lb drop today. Awesome! You're not doing dairy either, are you?

        Comment


        • True, I dropped dairy because I am following Dr. Rosedale's recommendation of limiting sat fat in the first weeks. It has only been one week since my last binge, so I am essentially starting over. I am just looking for the right macros and calories for weight loss. So far 75% fat seems good. 80-85% was too much for me and I was doing too many bulletproof coffees to get there rather than eating real food.

          As far as BMR is concerned, the calculations are correct for me. I have a GoWearFit armband that measures actual calorie burn. My actual TDEE matches the TDEE of the calculators fairly well.

          I have always believed that one must eat no lower than BMR in order to stay healthy and still lose weight. Healthy meaning that the body is getting enough so that it won't feel the need to turn down the metabolic rate. That has worked for me. What I am testing now is the idea that I might be able to eat 10-20% below BMR, still be healthy and lose weight faster. Some NK gurus believe that one can eat below BMR if the food intake is well balanced. With 1200 being the low limit for most well formulated NK plans. We shall see how this works.
          Last edited by Pebbles67; 03-16-2013, 11:18 AM.
          Primal since 9/24/2010
          "Our greatest foes, and whom we must chiefly combat, are within." Miguel de Cervantes

          Created by MyFitnessPal.com - Free Weight Loss Tools
          MFP username: MDAPebbles67

          Comment


          • Originally posted by martinus View Post
            PS: Yesterday I've updated the calculator to make it a bit more intuitive: Keto Calculator. I am happy for any suggestion to improve it!
            Have tried the new version. It is definitely clearer (can't mistake adjusting the carb no. now) so great work.

            According to the calculator (I am 5'6 aged 49, 168lb, 39% BF, no exercise) my TDEE is 1691.

            My Protein intake is 46g 184 cal (yes I know too low according to P&V but that number is working for me right now)
            My Carb intake is 10g 40 cal
            The calculator says min Fat at least 30g 270 cal
            Giving me total daily calories 494, which would give me a 2.4lb/wk loss, which fits in with the forecast.

            Given discussions 1) & 2) under minimum fat I wonder if its possible to go this low & remain healthy & not lose LBM. CW suggests not.

            Given that I have just gained 3lb this week (no loss of LBM) whilst averaging 1200 cals with Protein & Carbs as above, maybe I should give it a go
            Last edited by Ddraig Goch; 03-16-2013, 11:28 AM. Reason: clarification

            Comment


            • Originally posted by mks8500 View Post
              Copy away! It seems like our bodies work similarly. My calculated BMR has never ever been close to being correct. Has anyone felt the same? Maybe once my metabolism is fixed, but not right now.

              I have never thought calculated BMR to be correct. For one thing the different calculators fluctuate too much. Congratulations on your success. Keep doing what you are doing.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Ddraig Goch View Post
                Have tried the new version. It is definitely clearer (can't mistake adjusting the carb no. now) so great work.

                According to the calculator (I am 5'6 aged 49, 168lb, 39% BF, no exercise) my TDEE is 1691.

                My Protein intake is 46g 184 cal (yes I know too low according to P&V but that number is working for me right now)
                My Carb intake is 10g 40 cal
                The calculator says min Fat at least 30g 270 cal
                Giving me total daily calories 494, which would give me a 2.4lb/wk loss, which fits in with the forecast.

                Given discussions 1) & 2) under minimum fat I wonder if its possible to go this low & remain healthy & not lose LBM. CW suggests not.

                Given that I have just gained 3lb this week (no loss of LBM) whilst averaging 1200 cals with Protein & Carbs as above, maybe I should give it a go
                So are you saying you want to eat less than 500 calories every day?
                Chris
                "Life isn't about waiting for the storm to pass. It is about learning to dance in the rain."
                Unknown

                My journal: http://www.marksdailyapple.com/forum/thread36279.html

                My "Program": doing my version of a 4:3 - 3 day fast diet with real food every day, with a little twist of anti-inflammatory mixed in.

                Comment


                • Originally posted by demuralist View Post
                  So are you saying you want to eat less than 500 calories every day?
                  I'm not saying I WANT to. I'm just saying maybe it would work & prehaps I should give it a go. Desperate times require desperate measures lol.

                  I have been on 10g carb, 46g protein av 1130 cals for 3 weeks now so I must be fat adapted by now. From all I have read over the past month, carbs are un-necessary & fat is only required for satiety until the BF% gets into single figures. Protein should be restricted to an appropriate level. If the body burns 22 cals/lb/d then I have more than enough to keep me going in a fat adapted state.

                  I suppose in theory, as long as all those bases are covered 500 cals would give me optimum fat lose. Whether I could work out a menu to fit the macros exactly is another matter

                  Comment


                  • good luck with it. I have been that route, several times in several different ways. Yes I lost it, but here I am with a seriously messed up body from the yoyoing. For me what is important is that what I am doing is not only successful in the fat loss category, and healthy (makes me feel good physically), but that I can sustain it for life. Restricting calories to any degree for every single day of the rest of my life is not sustainable.

                    Ancel Keyes did a study on starvation, interesting. Someone wrote a book about it. Very good, and enlightening.
                    Chris
                    "Life isn't about waiting for the storm to pass. It is about learning to dance in the rain."
                    Unknown

                    My journal: http://www.marksdailyapple.com/forum/thread36279.html

                    My "Program": doing my version of a 4:3 - 3 day fast diet with real food every day, with a little twist of anti-inflammatory mixed in.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Ddraig Goch View Post
                      I have never thought calculated BMR to be correct. For one thing the different calculators fluctuate too much. Congratulations on your success. Keep doing what you are doing.
                      You know, I have used three different calculators and I get the similar (within 20 cals) reading every time. I could see it being logical that your body doesn't actually burn the BMR calories calculated, but the calculators themselves are pretty similar even when they use a different calculating method.

                      As for only eating 30g fat, that seems scary low to me and was why I had a problem with martinus' calculator in the first place. It seemed ridiculous that he would suggest something like that could be healthy. The /r/keto FAQ everything about keto that the Keto calculator is attached to seems to suggest a higher level of fat..
                      Primal since 9/24/2010
                      "Our greatest foes, and whom we must chiefly combat, are within." Miguel de Cervantes

                      Created by MyFitnessPal.com - Free Weight Loss Tools
                      MFP username: MDAPebbles67

                      Comment


                      • I wear the five fingers whereever I go. Everyday. THey may be ugly but they are the most amazing shoes I have ever worn!
                        Originally posted by mks8500 View Post
                        I'll look it up for sure. I'm wearing the 5 fingers around the house now and I swear I'd love to hate these shoes because they're so ugly but it doesn't hurt as badly as it did earlier today. I appreciate all the comments. I have soooo much sympathy for anyone that's ever experienced this. Yikes!!

                        Megan
                        You know all those things you wanted to do: You should go do them.

                        Age 48
                        height 5'3
                        SW 215 lbs
                        CW 180 lbs (whole foods/primal eating)
                        LW 172 lbs
                        GW 125ish lbs

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by demuralist View Post
                          good luck with it. I have been that route, several times in several different ways. Yes I lost it, but here I am with a seriously messed up body from the yoyoing. For me what is important is that what I am doing is not only successful in the fat loss category, and healthy (makes me feel good physically), but that I can sustain it for life. Restricting calories to any degree for every single day of the rest of my life is not sustainable.

                          Ancel Keyes did a study on starvation, interesting. Someone wrote a book about it. Very good, and enlightening.
                          I agree calorie restriction cannot be for life but I don't see how one can lose weight if there isn't some calorie restriction involved. After all, what is JUDDD if not a form of calorie restriction?

                          Surely the basis of being fat adapted is that the body uses its own body fat as an additional energy source? If you are providing optimal nutrition for the body (ie taking in adequate nutrient dense protein & fat along with opening up the body's fat burning pathway) how can that be termed a starvation diet? If it is then we have just proved the keto calculator is flawed as it does not included a minimum calorie intake whatever that may be.
                          Last edited by Ddraig Goch; 03-16-2013, 01:56 PM. Reason: add quote

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Pebbles67 View Post
                            You know, I have used three different calculators and I get the similar (within 20 cals) reading every time. I could see it being logical that your body doesn't actually burn the BMR calories calculated, but the calculators themselves are pretty similar even when they use a different calculating method.

                            As for only eating 30g fat, that seems scary low to me and was why I had a problem with martinus' calculator in the first place. It seemed ridiculous that he would suggest something like that could be healthy. The /r/keto FAQ everything about keto that the Keto calculator is attached to seems to suggest a higher level of fat..
                            I have had BMR calculations from 1358 to 1644. Just tried the UK nhs one & that has told me 1465. Hence you can see my confusion.

                            I agree 30g fat is probably too low & I can't say I really want to do <500 cals as a long term eating plan. But the theory is interesting. I would love to know what the optimal macro is that would allow me to utilise the maximum amount of my body fat whilst not slowing down my metabolism (I guess we all would). I am committed to sticking to my n=1 for another week any way until I get to the end of week 4. If this stall/gain continues after that I will think again.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Ddraig Goch View Post
                              I agree calorie restriction cannot be for life but I don't see how one can lose weight if there isn't some calorie restriction involved. After all, what is JUDDD if not a form of calorie restriction?

                              Surely the basis of being fat adapted is that the body uses its own body fat as an additional energy source? If you are providing optimal nutrition for the body (ie taking in adequate nutrient dense protein & fat along with opening up the body's fat burning pathway) how can that be termed a starvation diet? If it is then we have just proved the keto calculator is flawed as it does not included a minimum calorie intake whatever that may be.

                              you are correct, I should not have said "any" restriction. However it is my hope that I will get to a point where conscious restriction is not necessary. I actually think that version of JUDD, or a 5:2, or IF if you prefer would be doable for life. Because technically it would allow reasonable occasional treats. That doesn't happen on extreme caloric restriction. And I honestly don't see how you could be taking in adequate nutrition when your daily intake is that low. HOWEVER, this whole this is a giant experiment for each of us. In the same way that I am not willing to give up dairy or AS, I am not willing to restrict calories to that level on a daily basis for the (at least) 1 year it would require me to get to goal.
                              Chris
                              "Life isn't about waiting for the storm to pass. It is about learning to dance in the rain."
                              Unknown

                              My journal: http://www.marksdailyapple.com/forum/thread36279.html

                              My "Program": doing my version of a 4:3 - 3 day fast diet with real food every day, with a little twist of anti-inflammatory mixed in.

                              Comment


                              • I need help. I'm having some serious issues keeping up with NK and my job. I hate to cook meals ahead of time, but I think that I'm going to have to. I have no idea how to cook like that, other than crockpot cooking. When I came home from work last night and tonight, we had respectively, pizza and chinese. Last night, I just ate the toppings off the pizza and tonight I had fried rice and an egg roll. I'm exhausted when I get home from work and don't want to do a damn thing. I like my job, but its very stressful and I'm finding myself wanting to slip and I know that if I slip, I'll never make goal. I will not give up dairy, I think right now that would be very bad for me. I've been considering eating nothing but fat bombs when I get home and let the family fend for themselves. This job is so different from anything that I've ever done and with the way I felt the last 2 nights, I'm not sure I can keep up with both the job and NK.
                                Georgette

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