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Eat More Fat! The Nutritional Ketosis Challenge continues...

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  • My memory on the ketostix is that the amount of fluid you take in can have a great effect on the depth of color. Also, I seem to remember that Paleobird mentioned that the longer you are in NK the less likely it is to show up on the sticks. Pretty sure the only really accurate way is to blood test using a glucose type meter with the sticks to test for ketones.
    Chris
    "Life isn't about waiting for the storm to pass. It is about learning to dance in the rain."
    Unknown

    My journal: http://www.marksdailyapple.com/forum/thread36279.html

    My "Program": doing my version of a 4:3 - 3 day fast diet with real food every day, with a little twist of anti-inflammatory mixed in.

    Comment


    • Originally posted by mks8500 View Post
      Morning all! Someone on here mentioned that Ketostix aren't really accurate (I think it was back in the January post though). I'm curious about this. I had 6 carbs on Friday and was purple yesterday. I had 17 carbs yesterday and was moderate this morning. I'm trying to fine tune my fats and carbs in a spreadsheet so I'm better able to determine what puts me where but if they aren't accurate then I need to know that there might be some fluctuation. I can share the spreadsheet when I'm done if anyone wants a copy. Nothing fancy though.

      Megan
      From Phinney & Volek:

      Urine is the most common method used to track ketosis because it is the cheapest and easiest test. Reagent strips (dipsticks) containing sodium nitroprusside dipped in urine change to varying shades of purple in proportion to the level of AcAc (and to some extent acetone) present. The degree of color change provides a semi-quantitative measure of ketone concentration in urine, but this test has been found to inaccurately reflect actual blood ketone concentrations in several studies[68]. This is because keto-adaptation involves complex changes in the way the kidneys filter blood and thus excretion of ketones. As a result, urine ketones may decrease even as blood values stay in the desirable range. Therefore, although this method is practical and relatively inexpensive, its results should be viewed with a considerable degree of caution.

      Blood tests for ketones are more definitive since they measure the concentration of BOHB, AcAc, or both, where it is most important – directly in your circulation. This can be done by having your blood drawn (usually requiring a doctor’s order) and sending it to an expensive clinical laboratory. A faster and more practical method is available by means of home blood testing devices that assess BOHB in blood obtained from a finger stick. For example, Precision Xtra® (Abbott Diabetes Care, Inc) and Nova Max® Plus (Nova Biomedical) are reasonably priced devices (~$20) available ‘over-the-counter’ that can test for levels of BOHB and glucose in a matter of seconds. However, reagent strips for BOHB are relatively expensive (~$3 to 5 per strip) if purchased at retail drug stores. On eBay, however, it is possible to buy these same blood ketone strips for $1-2 each.

      Even this reduced price may seem like a lot to pay to test your individual response, but this investment for a few months of testing provides valuable feedback on whether you are in the right ketone zone. Think about it: what if minor changes in your intake of carbs and/or protein could boost you from 0.4 millimolar BOHB to 2.0 millimolar? At this lower level, ketones are doing little to feed your brain or help you build muscle, whereas at or above 2.0 millimolar BOHB, both would be working strongly in your favor. Is this worth paying $20 for the test meter, $2 per test, and pricking your fingertip once per day for a month or two? Based upon our experience working with many people, we think that the answer is “yes”.

      There are also devices in development that will test the concentration of acetone in breath; which in turn has been shown to correlate well with blood ketones[69]. This breath test is better than urine ketones because the lungs don’t filter the acetone. In all likelihood, one or more breath ketone analyzers will be commercially available soon. When they are, you’ll have a hand-held device that you can blow into and know your body’s ketone level in less than a minute. What will this device save you? The cost per test likely will be about the same as the Abbott device, so all you’ll save with a breath analyzer would be biting you lip and pricking a fingertip. The current bottom line: don’t hold your breath waiting for the breath analyzer.

      Phinney, Stephen; Jeff Volek (2012-06-15). The Art and Science of Low Carbohydrate Performance (p. 93). Beyond Obesity LLC. Kindle Edition.
      Last edited by Annlee; 02-03-2013, 07:28 AM.

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      • After two days of an awful stomach bug, i'm back on plan. The first day I ate some white rice then realized that I may not have a bug but maybe a healing crisis after eating primal for a month. Maybe my body cleansing. But that night I had fever and aches so maybe it was a bug. I felt dehydrated after sitting on the potty for two days. Last night I transitioned back into food with a scrambled egg and a Yukon gold potato.

        This morning I feel like I'm back! No trips to the potty in the middle of the night. I'm testing with a cup of decaf and cream. I didn't have caffeine yesterday and thought I might go without it. Caffeinated coffee is a habit I picked up in December. I think I might like how I feel better without it, but I will miss the caffeine rush!

        I forgot to mention, the bug was good for another pound. We'll see if it sticks. At least it's my first February pound! 😉
        Last edited by calee; 02-03-2013, 07:43 AM.

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        • Originally posted by mmSuzyQ View Post
          Hi - I'm new to MDA & Primal/Paleo lifestyle. I got interested in changing my diet after reading The 4-Hr Body which promotes a slow-carb diet (hi-prot, lentils/legumes/veg/nuts/seeds/fats & no fruit). I just finished my 3rd week with stalled results (stopped doing cardio but did BodyPump to maintain muscle since starting & may have enjoyed cheat days a little too much), but have kept 5 lbs off since wk #1.

          This is a great site (amongst others) with tons of great info & I'm now thinking of going Primal & omitting legumes & adding back small quantities of fruit.

          After doing my research (something I always do before making the leap) and reading this particular thread in its entirety, I can't help but notice some common themes:

          1 - Many of you seem to be too careful with lowering carbs too much (hardly any mention of veggies but for avocados)
          2 - increasing fats to the detriment of protein (isn't the point of Primal to keep protein up for satiety & increase/maintain muscle - ditto for fats)
          3 - a lot of IF to the point where it seems obssessive - would this not lower metabolism too much where body will hang on to fat slowing down weightloss
          4 - not much talk of re-feeding which would prevent plateaus
          5 - the obsession with COUNTING & LOWERING CALORIES! I thought the whole point of Paleo/Primal was to enjoy your food in adopting this lifestyle.

          I'm getting the impression that weight loss can only be done by lowering calories, which I thought was counter-productive in the Primal lifestyle.

          BTW - I also read thread on eating more fat which brought on this new thread.

          All of the above is an objective observation with no malice intended...just concern.

          I'm 50 yrs, 5'2"
          CW 176 lbs
          GW ?
          We are lowering carb sufficiently for ketosis. Perhaps check out the book: "The Art and Science of Low Carbohydrate Performance". Great stuff.

          I, personally, have insulin resistance and the PCOS that comes with it. My sugar metabolism is pretty trashed. I am resting it. I ate basically primal for over a year first before starting this. I lost 32 lbs very slowly. I still had about 15 or so lbs to go with no loss for 3 months. So I'm basically kicking it up a notch.

          We are not increasing fats to the detriment of protein. Rather to the detriment of carbs. Fats are an excellent energy source like carbs, yet are also necessary nutrients and building blocks, unlike carbs. Protein is being eaten at a moderate level, the aim is for sufficient protein to cover its building block work, for muscle repair etc, but not excessive amounts that cause the body to turn it I to sugar. Indeed, my little app recommends less protein than I eat on this diet actually.

          IF doesn't lower metabolism, overall calorie consumption (averaged out over a period of days) can if it is low. I don't really IF- well I often don't eat after supper- around 5. So I may get 14 or 15 hours between supper and my coffee a lot of the time. But it's not something my body balks at except when my hormones are getting to me, and I go ahead and eat when they are

          I'm doing this to break a plateau. Carb refeeding is not useful for ketosis. For just low carb, maybe. But actual ketosis is a whole Nother ball game. It's not something you want to hop in and out of, doing that is hard on your body.

          Re: calories. Calories DO matter . BUT, if you start out just lowering calories and eating the same, and you have sugar metabolism issues, you're gonna have a bad time but first get your kinds of foods right, then, if you need to make further adjustments. Now if I ate primal and did not count calories, as I've done for over a year, I'd probably eventually lose all my weight, but I bet it would take 2-3 years total. The less you have to lose, the harder it gets, and often you DO have to count calories to get the last of it off.

          Ketosis + calorie counting is simply an extremely powerful tool for fat loss for those of us with particularly sticky fat. Ketosis is also therapeutic for certain ailments that some here have, as mentioned.

          So basically, for me, what I am doing is temporary, resting my sugar metabolism, doing that last bit of leaning down and then I'll be back to carbs to see how I do. A LOT of people have gone low car. And then ketosis and then back to carbs and were then able to handle the carbs in their world again. A great way to fix insulin resistance (as long as you are earn g "real food"- it doesn't seem that Atkins people have that same success of going back to carbs, because they usually eat crap low carb foods, and to back to crap high carb foods.

          That said, I do not think this way of eating is bad to stay on indefinitely, that's not why I'm only don g it temporarily. I just like to eat so I dot want to stay this limited on my food forever. I like to garden and my favorite foods are probably watermelon and potatoes I have about 6 or 7 watermelon varieties I'm planting this year.

          So, in short, this is a powerful tool for weight loss and fixing the sugar metabolism. And those to hand in hand. And for some of us, you'll notice mostly women as we ladies have a harder time losing fat than men, especially middle aged women we need this level of work to lose that weight. I cant easily maintai. Without calorie counting and all that, but im not losing.

          A whacky sugar metabolism goes into a lot of illnesses, from arthritis to back pain to carpel tunnel to Alzheimer's to excessive aging and pretty much any kind of inflammatory issue. This is the most powerful way I know to really get a grip on that problem.

          And lastly, I'm running a 10k in march. Ketosis has been shown to somewhat improve athletic perirmance so there's a bit of experimenting there.

          HTH
          Last edited by AshleyL; 02-03-2013, 07:48 AM.

          Comment


          • I find ketostix useful at the beginning of an NK program to see if one is on the right track. I just used them this morning to check if I had re entered ketosis after having sweet potato on Friday. Glad to say i saw dark purple.

            I covet the blood monitor in Annlee's quote above.
            Primal since 9/24/2010
            "Our greatest foes, and whom we must chiefly combat, are within." Miguel de Cervantes

            Created by MyFitnessPal.com - Free Weight Loss Tools
            MFP username: MDAPebbles67

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            • just reading Ashley's response I realized that my arthritic thumbs have not been bothering me (well except after I spent hours using scissors to cut up DD's t-shirts for a t-shirt quilt I am making).

              another non-scale victory!!!

              p.s. I have decided that if I don't really lose weight on my March weigh in that I will invest in a blood meter as well as reading their book, our library doesn't have it as an e-version yet.
              Chris
              "Life isn't about waiting for the storm to pass. It is about learning to dance in the rain."
              Unknown

              My journal: http://www.marksdailyapple.com/forum/thread36279.html

              My "Program": doing my version of a 4:3 - 3 day fast diet with real food every day, with a little twist of anti-inflammatory mixed in.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by little vase View Post
                I would love to find out more about the lotions as well. Thanks for bringing this up. I'm taking MSM and fish oil now. I started last month and am not sure how long it takes to kick in but I see some early signs of sag starting to happen....there's a hint of it at the very top of my thighs in front, and of course the dreaded under arm thing. I'm 58 and have about 80 lbs to lose so I think it might be inevitable but boy am I going to fight it tooth and nail. I am aiming for slow weight loss here, so my skin can *hopefully* catch up with the rest of me. Also lifting weights. I will add the skin brushing to my routine, and get some vitamin e caps as well. What about applying vit e to your skin?
                Vase, from what I read, applying vitamin E oil to the skin is good, but optimum is to ingest it. Like with food, it heals your body from the inside out. I'm going to start this today.
                Georgette

                Comment


                • For those interested in arguments for and against managing your carbs and protein (read - managing your insulin) for weight loss and behavioral success (binge control?), I suggest Do not miss | Ad Libitum and reading all the links she provided (Wooo's blog is ... intense ).

                  I can't find a way to copy it, but the graph on page 11 of 144 (location 205 of 2184 in the Kindle edition) of Phinney & Volek's Art of Low Carbohydrate Performance is what you need to understand -- especially, if (like me) your carb tolerance is pretty low.

                  Comment


                  • For the person asking about why some of us are doing this. I will be 37 next month and have essentially spent the past 26 years of my life overweight and at some points morbidly obese. I am an emotional eater, have been know to binge on occasion. I also am working on overcoming issues such as PCOS, periodic high BP and now, as of yesterday, I can add arthritis to the mix. IR is gone(thank God) and just getting into overall better health. This WOE has kept me from having major binges which at any sign of stress, I can eat like no other. Plus, I am a much happier person and I have noticed improvements in health in other aspects of my life. Like everyone has said, this is an extreme form of primal for those of us with extreme issues. If you are new to this lifestyle, please follow regular old primal for about 3-6 months and adjust from there.
                    Georgette

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                    • Has anyone read this? Eat Fat Grow Slim! From 1958. Might be interesting. I'm going to look through it. Interesting that this was being promoted so long ago.

                      Eat Fat And Grow Slim by Richard Mackarness (1958)

                      Comment


                      • Hello everyone. This is my first post since joining MDA. I have been primal of a month now and am doing pretty well. I have had some screw ups but for the first time I am not beating myself up. I just get right back up and start again. I have been reading this post about high fat and ketosis. I believe I am doing this at a modest level. I lost 11 lbs my first month which I was excited about but I have a question. I did not lose any size. I measured myself again at the end of the month and there were no changes. I was really surprised about that. Do you think I just lost water the first month? Everyone talks about how many inches they lose even when the scale doesn't move. Is this normal starting out? I'm not really discourage but it makes me wonder if I'm doing this right? Any ideas?

                        Comment


                        • Just a little n=1 experiment.. I have done the BP in the morning and the evening. I think I really prefer it in the morning for a couple of reasons:
                          -it really gets me to lunch
                          -it sets my mind up positively in that I do not feel restricted in my foods for the rest of the day.
                          -I like seeing my stats afterward 1-c, 47 fat, 1-p something about seeing this after breakfast gives me hope and does not make it seem I am locked in a calorie/macro battle.
                          Karin


                          Created by MyFitnessPal.com - Free Calorie Counter

                          What am I doing? Depends on the day.

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                          • Originally posted by Jan View Post
                            Hello everyone. This is my first post since joining MDA. I have been primal of a month now and am doing pretty well. I have had some screw ups but for the first time I am not beating myself up. I just get right back up and start again. I have been reading this post about high fat and ketosis. I believe I am doing this at a modest level. I lost 11 lbs my first month which I was excited about but I have a question. I did not lose any size. I measured myself again at the end of the month and there were no changes. I was really surprised about that. Do you think I just lost water the first month? Everyone talks about how many inches they lose even when the scale doesn't move. Is this normal starting out? I'm not really discourage but it makes me wonder if I'm doing this right? Any ideas?
                            A lot of this could be water, however if you are lifting heavy things or working out, you could be adding muscle. There are others more knowledgeable than me. One thing to consider as well is after years of eating a CW diet, your body is healing on the inside.
                            Karin


                            Created by MyFitnessPal.com - Free Calorie Counter

                            What am I doing? Depends on the day.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Jan View Post
                              Hello everyone. This is my first post since joining MDA. I have been primal of a month now and am doing pretty well. I have had some screw ups but for the first time I am not beating myself up. I just get right back up and start again. I have been reading this post about high fat and ketosis. I believe I am doing this at a modest level. I lost 11 lbs my first month which I was excited about but I have a question. I did not lose any size. I measured myself again at the end of the month and there were no changes. I was really surprised about that. Do you think I just lost water the first month? Everyone talks about how many inches they lose even when the scale doesn't move. Is this normal starting out? I'm not really discourage but it makes me wonder if I'm doing this right? Any ideas?
                              It could also be that you are losing visceral fat, the stuff that is lurking around internal organs.
                              Of all the paths you take in life, make sure a few of them are dirt.

                              Comment


                              • I haven't been working out yet. That was going to be my "month two" goal. I remembered the ketosis strips from my Atkins days years ago. I was using those occasionally and they were almost always purple. Which, I thought, meant I was burning fat. Like I said, I'm not really discouraged but sure hope month two shows some reduction in size not just weight on the scale.

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