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How My Primal Instincts Led Me to... Veganism

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  • Originally posted by whitebear View Post
    LEGITIMATE is the key word here. What good is an argument that you can't back up with truth. How wonderful it would be if we could go around making stuff up and claiming it as gospel. Oh wait, that's what they call religion. You can make up any load of crap made up argument you want but that dose not make it legitimate. The line between fact and fiction,guess,assumption is quite clear. Sorry, but you can make stuff up all you want and yes it will be your argument but that dose not make it applicable to reality.
    I didn't claim my argument was gospel or indisputable fact, it was simply my argument.

    Also, the legitimacy of an argument is its logical cohesion, not whether it's based on facts. For example, since you brought up religion, you can make a logical, i.e. valid argument against or for the existence of God without, obviously, any facts.

    Lastly, my argument was indeed based on facts. The individual pieces that composed my argument was mostly fact, the deduction, however, is just my point of view.

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    • Originally posted by quikky View Post
      I didn't claim my argument was gospel or indisputable fact, it was simply my argument.

      Also, the legitimacy of an argument is its logical cohesion, not whether it's based on facts. For example, since you brought up religion, you can make a logical, i.e. valid argument against or for the existence of God without, obviously, any facts.

      Lastly, my argument was indeed based on facts. The individual pieces that composed my argument was mostly fact, the deduction, however, is just my point of view.
      Okay, I can see that arguing is more important than the argument to you so you go on with your bad self. My point was just that you are only guessing that rape is a part of human nature and that it might have been a regular occurrence in groks days. Maybe it was maybe it wasn't. People argue bullsh*t all the time. I like to think that rape is a product of our modern, twisted, sick society and that it's not in our nature. It's certainly not in mine and there is no arguing that.
      Last edited by whitebear; 01-25-2013, 10:32 PM.

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      • Originally posted by whitebear View Post
        Okay, I can see that arguing is more important than the argument to you so you go on with your bad self. My point was just that you are only guessing that rape is a part of human nature and that it might have been a regular occurrence in groks days. Maybe it was maybe it wasn't. People argue bullsh*t all the time.
        I don't want to discuss, as requested, this particular topic further, so I won't elaborate on it anymore. The argument itself was legitimate. You think it's bullshit, or the whole topic/idea is bullshit - fine. Doesn't change the legitimacy of what's argued.

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        • Originally posted by quikky View Post
          I don't want to discuss, as requested, this particular topic further, so I won't elaborate on it anymore. The argument itself was legitimate. You think it's bullshit, or the whole topic/idea is bullshit - fine. Doesn't change the legitimacy of what's argued.
          Sure it dose. The fact remains that you basically made your argument up. That's all I am pointing out.

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          • Originally posted by whitebear View Post
            Sure it dose. The fact remains that you basically made your argument up. That's all I am pointing out.
            Well yeah, I did make up my argument. Make up in terms of taking various factual pieces of information and putting them together into an argument; not making up in terms of fantasizing something completely illogical and baseless like saying Grok used to ride unicorns. I could be wrong, I could be right. You yourself said "maybe it was maybe it wasn't". You can't say "maybe it was" to an illegitimate argument. So... What are we arguing about exactly?

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            • Originally posted by whitebear View Post
              I like to think that rape is a product of our modern, twisted, sick society and that it's not in our nature. It's certainly not in mine and there is no arguing that.
              One of the posters said that he believes it to be disgraceful to deny Mother Nature. Without bringing up my specific example, the point here is that we all naturally have certain desires, urges, instincts, if you will. While these natural urges are not necessarily to commit certain bad acts, if we give in to them completely, and constantly, i.e. do what we simply naturally feel like doing without the actions going through any kind of moral filter, it can lead to bad things. Morals, after all, are a human invention, and a recent one at that. So, when humans were more natural, more primal, and not moral per se, it is logical to think that they were driven a by what's naturally in them, not by what they deemed right or wrong. Hence the argument, that not following nature can be quite graceful.

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              • Hell, ancient societies punished that stuff by death and genital mutilation. We are far more lenient today than a lot of ancient people. Pursuit and force are two wildly different things
                Yeah... and today we still have societies that stone and mutilate women that have the audacity to get raped. And we don't take most cases of rape very seriously in the US....

                But I don't see instances of animals raping- with horses, stallions don't forcefully breed mares not in heat. They may breed many mares in heat, and may seek to obtain many mares, but they don't go force themselves on non-receptive mares to get their power trip on. Yeah, he's not bringing the mare any flowers....

                http://maggiesfeast.wordpress.com/
                Check out my blog. Hope to share lots of great recipes and ideas!

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                • That said, how are animals different? I think one big thing is, they do not understand time. Time of day, yes. They have routines. But they don't know how old they are. They don't know how long ago the ice storm came or how old their babies are (but they do know who they are). They all die. But if they die at 20 years old or 1 years old, I don't think it matters to them. They don't wish for longer lives, they just have that instinct that us humans have, to survive- they never really "want" to die, but they all do. They don't know when it was that a dog got in the herd and killed one of their own, they just know that they have an association that they are terrified of dogs. Animals don't know how or why, they don't, they cannot think outside their lot in life. They know the things they need to do (but don't know they know them, if that makes sense), they have the skills for their own little world, they start with the minimum and have the capacity to learn within that set lot in life. But nothing else beyond it. But they are very sensitive, small changes can totally change the hormone environment in their body. A smell, a certain person's presence.. all by association or instinct.
                  This.... animals live in the present with no awareness of the future, except perhaps routine. They know a certain time of day is feeding time. They can know suffering, but if I walked up to my horse in her field with a syringe of blue juice, and euthanized her, she would have no concept of her life somehow being cut short.

                  However, confined operations are awful..... because animals do suffer in the present.

                  http://maggiesfeast.wordpress.com/
                  Check out my blog. Hope to share lots of great recipes and ideas!

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                  • Magnolia, watch some chickens. I don't think I've ever seen a consenting hen! And yes, I've seen other species do this. Some buck goats will if they can. They don't know what they are doing, thy dont have the capacity. And it doesn't have anything like the effect it has on a woman. They (the does/hen)on about their business afterwards. Mind you it's also over in a second. And the does will fight the bucks off. But a buck will breed a stump of he can.
                    Last edited by AshleyL; 01-26-2013, 06:24 AM.

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                    • Yeah, they also probably don't feel shame.... like we program women to feel shame about sex. The doe isn't embarassed that the horny buck stole her virginity, just annoyed that she had her day disrupted by an annoyance. Goats are so funny....

                      We assign a heap ton of emotion to sex that just can't be translated to the animal kingdom.

                      http://maggiesfeast.wordpress.com/
                      Check out my blog. Hope to share lots of great recipes and ideas!

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                      • We don't assign it, it's innate in us. We are different. The emotional connection there is real and not just taught.

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                        • The emotional connection there is real and not just taught.
                          I don't know, we can still have sex for the pleasure of it with no emotion (prostitution). I guess the fact that we have sex for other reasons outside of reproduction makes us different.

                          http://maggiesfeast.wordpress.com/
                          Check out my blog. Hope to share lots of great recipes and ideas!

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                          • Originally posted by AshleyL View Post
                            Magnolia, watch some chickens. I don't think I've ever seen a consenting hen! And yes, I've seen other species do this. Some buck goats will if they can. They don't know what they are doing, thy dont have the capacity. And it doesn't have anything like the effect it has on a woman. They (the does/hen)on about their business afterwards. Mind you it's also over in a second. And the does will fight the bucks off. But a buck will breed a stump of he can.
                            I quite disagree Ashley.

                            As someone who grew up farming and raising/breeding livestock as well, including several different breeds of chickens, I saw two different types of roosters among them. There was the patient sort of fatherly flock cock that all the hens loved and adored... generally this guy talked a lot. Low clucks to call his ladies to all the food so they ate first, was hyper alert, to warn them off in case of any sort of visual disturbance, and walked up nicely dropping a wing and doing a two-step dance to ask for a "ride" to mate... at which point if the hen was receptive she would squat down for him willingly and he would step on her back.
                            It is certainly even possible to have more than one Roo in a bunch of hens who is such a gentleman at the same time.

                            Not of the same sort of rooster at all as the other who chases hens down, grabs them by the neck, and over powers them.
                            Sometimes this is the behavior if young inexperienced and overzealous Roos... or too many roos to hens in the ratio... but also it may just be a BAD Roo that is a jerk and need to be culled.
                            Most of the roos who are like that also don't tend their ladies well, they don't watch for them, and don't call to feed, they have simply forgotten how to behave as proper male chickens due to poor breeding IMO.

                            On our place we always culled Roos that caused strife in the hen house. And stressing the hens be not being a proper husband is strife.

                            A billy goat in rut is a different story all together... evidently being completely insane and smelling of your own piss is sexy to a female goat?
                            “You have your way. I have my way. As for the right way, the correct way, and the only way, it does not exist.”
                            ~Friedrich Nietzsche
                            And that's why I'm here eating HFLC Primal/Paleo.

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                            • Apparently we get a lot of roosters of the more jerk like variety lol. They do take care of the hens but even if the hen doesnt run I can't say she ever looks terribly happy about the whole ordeal.

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                              • Originally posted by AshleyL View Post
                                Apparently we get a lot of roosters of the more jerk like variety lol. They do take care of the hens but even if the hen doesnt run I can't say she ever looks terribly happy about the whole ordeal.
                                Yeah, unfortunately most breeders don't care at all about the behaviors of birds... just looks, size, etc. It's a pet peeve of mine. It's not that hard to cull for both looks and brains really.

                                This applies equally to so many species that humans fool with.
                                “You have your way. I have my way. As for the right way, the correct way, and the only way, it does not exist.”
                                ~Friedrich Nietzsche
                                And that's why I'm here eating HFLC Primal/Paleo.

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