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How My Primal Instincts Led Me to... Veganism

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  • Originally posted by patski View Post
    Glad I could be of service.

    Now I flip the question back on you: do you think you're morally superior to those who eat meat?
    Well, it depends on the meat. If they're eating meat from animals who lived their entire lives in misery and torture, I think they're being incredibly selfish--"other creatures should endure horrible pain so I can eat bacon whenever I want"--but I don't necessarily think I'm better than them. Lots of times they're just uninformed.

    And it's not just meat--I heard that quinoa demand in America is leading to mistreatment of workers in Peru. (Another reason to not eat quinoa besides the fact that it makes my gut feel awful).

    There are definitely food choices that are "kinder" than others. Humanely raised meat is probably a "morally superior" meal to, say, bananas that were wrenched from the hands of third-world workers. In the end, we all have to do what feels right to us.

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    • Originally posted by 2ndChance View Post
      There are definitely food choices that are "kinder" than others. Humanely raised meat is probably a "morally superior" meal to, say, bananas that were wrenched from the hands of third-world workers. In the end, we all have to do what feels right to us.
      IMO humanely raised meat is the most moral thing you can eat. Hunting and eating wild game might be arguably more natural but sometimes the only humane or moral thing about it is that it got a swift clean death rather than a slow torturous one from some other predator.

      There are just as many ethical indictments against vegan foods as there are CAFCO meats. Choosing a vegan diet, a luxury entirely allowed by modern day living, disrespects your body, your nature, and your own needs. The ultimate in immoral choices IMO. Then there's the ethical considerations for all the rest of the plant based foods that have been thoroughly discussed elsewhere. Vegans have absolutely zero reason to feel morally superior to anyone. Zero.

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      • There are just as many ethical indictments against vegan foods as there are CAFCO meats. Choosing a vegan diet, a luxury entirely allowed by modern day living, disrespects your body, your nature, and your own needs. The ultimate in immoral choices IMO. Then there's the ethical considerations for all the rest of the plant based foods that have been thoroughly discussed elsewhere. Vegans have absolutely zero reason to feel morally superior to anyone. Zero.
        *slow clap* This is exactly how I feel about it.

        Also, I have better things to do than look for ways to feel morally superior based on what I eat. Like, thousands of better things. (I'm not saying that's what you're doing, 2ndChance; I'm talking about vegan culture in general.)

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        • Nothing lives without taking away the ability of something else to live.

          Nothing.

          We are *all* alive at the expense of something else.

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          • JMO, but primal instincts won't lead to veganism because it isn't natural; you need merely to look at your teeth to know this. Political correctness taken to such an extreme that one would give up one's health in sacrifice to cows, chickens, and pigs will lead one to veganism.
            "Right is right, even if no one is doing it; wrong is wrong, even if everyone is doing it." - St. Augustine

            B*tch-lite

            Who says back fat is a bad thing? Maybe on a hairy guy at the beach, but not on a crab.

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            • My idea of primal instincts is "eating what I feel like eating when I feel like eating it" and for the past few months I haven't felt like eating meat/eggs (dairy has always been gross). Like I said, if I wanted them, I would eat them.

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              • Originally posted by 2ndChance View Post
                My idea of primal instincts is "eating what I feel like eating when I feel like eating it" and for the past few months I haven't felt like eating meat/eggs (dairy has always been gross). Like I said, if I wanted them, I would eat them.
                If that was my idea of primal instincts, I'd still be eating Wendy's, pizza, and beer as my main 3 food groups. So glad I restored my ability to recognize the true nourishment by body craved but didn't recognize. And I guarantee that the food I eat results in less suffering than the food you eat.

                I can tell from your rhetoric that you read some pro-vegan blogs or books or articles. Will you do me and yourself a favor and read one pro-vegan article written by someone who cares more about your wellness than your ideology?
                The Champagne of Beards

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                • Yeah, I wasn't going to say anything, but "eating what I feel like eating when I feel like eating it" sounds more like a fast food motto than primal living.
                  Disclaimer: I eat 'meat and vegetables' ala Primal, although I don't agree with the carb curve. I like Perfect Health Diet and WAPF Lactofermentation a lot.

                  Griff's cholesterol primer
                  5,000 Cal Fat <> 5,000 Cal Carbs
                  Winterbike: What I eat every day is what other people eat to treat themselves.
                  TQP: I find for me that nutrition is much more important than what I do in the gym.
                  bloodorchid is always right

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                  • Veganism/vegetarianism for many, is an emotional response to animal suffering. I don't think there's a single person alive who enjoys seeing animals suffer; unless of course, you're a budding sociopath. (Edit: Morrissey is the exception: he loves himself more than anything, INCLUDING animals). If I followed my emotions to eat what I wanted, I'd stuff my face on cheese, ice cream and potato chips. ALL DAY.

                    But at the end of the day, we live at the expense of others. The fact that we drive cars, earn a living, take transit, own a home...whatever. Other creatures are dead because of US.

                    I am reminded of this fact frequently. I live in a beautiful area by the lake with plenty of parks, trees, and loads of wildlife. Racoons, coyotes. I'm always sad when I see a dead raccoon on the side of the road. Why? They were here FIRST! We took over! Humans industrialized, moved in, and destroyed. We continue to do so.

                    I've said this before, but I feel vegans/vegetarians have a serious problem with their own self-esteem, as they are willing to give up their own health and well-being for other sentient beings. The thing that also gets me is many Buddhists are practicing vegetarians. Where's the 'loving-kindness' towards oneself in that? The Dalai Lama isn't a vegetarian! For health reasons!

                    While I completely agree that eating humanely raised/slaughtered animals is a better choice, it is also inherently selfish: that flesh is better for our health. I'm not sure choosing it is more moral than CAFO meat, or just a 'better choice'.

                    Lastly, I find it offensive (and it's hard to offend me) and cruel to imply that vegetarianism makes one more compassionate. That smacks of elitism that only the first world spew!
                    Last edited by patski; 03-26-2013, 07:09 AM.
                    A Post-Primal PrimalPat

                    Do not allow yourself to become wrapped up in a food 'lifestyle'. That is ego, and you are not that.

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                    • This is yet another reason why animals are awesomer than humans:

                      Seal pups use surfboard as a slip-n-slide : TreeHugger

                      I laughed so hard I cried watching this!
                      A Post-Primal PrimalPat

                      Do not allow yourself to become wrapped up in a food 'lifestyle'. That is ego, and you are not that.

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                      • Originally posted by patski View Post
                        Lastly, I find it offensive (and it's hard to offend me) and cruel to imply that vegetarianism makes one more compassionate.
                        I don't understand why everyone on this forum says things like that. I'm not advocating vegetarianism or veganism, but what's wrong with thinking that one choice is morally superior to another? For example: I don't go around killing innocent people, which makes me more compassionate than those who do.

                        If the whole vegan spiel were true (not that it is) - if that way of eating dramatically reduced our impact on the environment and animal suffering (and improved our health to boot) - then of course it would be morally superior.
                        "Don't go in there, General, it's a trap! That's a grain chamber. It makes people like you into people like me."

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                        • It's true that we could all greatly decrease our impact on the planet by eating less and eating lower quality foods. It would certainly impact human health were we to eat fewer calories and less protein than we need for optimum health. But it's also true that we could decrease our impact with some form of population control. In fact, in the absence of population control, it doesn't matter how inadequate a diet humans decide to eat. The population will continue to grow to use up all available resources.

                          I don't think I've ever heard a vegan speak of population control.

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                          • Originally posted by PrimalHunter View Post
                            If the whole vegan spiel were true (not that it is) - if that way of eating dramatically reduced our impact on the environment and animal suffering (and improved our health to boot) - then of course it would be morally superior.
                            Well first off it's not true. It's been well established that vegetarian and vegan meals still require animal death and suffering. The trail of blood may stop at the plate but it doesn't magically disappear.

                            Whether or not something is moral is subjective. Eating an animal for food isn't immoral or moral in and of itself. It's just natural for many species including us. Allowing said animal to languish in suffering and sickness while it's alive is in my subjective opinion immoral.

                            Being able to care about how our food was raised is a luxury for sure. However don't I think honoring the compassionate side of our natures is any more unnatural than stuffing hundreds of thousands of chickens into a warehouse with each of them having the space equivalent to a piece of printer paper, beaks cut off, wire cutting into their feet, while their eggs roll down a metal grate. There's nothing natural about raising an animal for food under torturous conditions.

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                            • PrimalHunter: You don't go around talking about how moral you are for NOT killing people, do you? There's the difference. I don't think anyone in their right mind should walk around spewing verbal diarrhea about how MORAL they are, or how COMPASSIONATE they are. Those people who do are usually complete self-righteous, self-important assholes.

                              Moral according to whom? Compassionate according to whom? Who sets the standards?

                              If we're going to go there, then I think it's immoral NOT to eat animals, as to do so is to put your own body and mind in serious jeopardy. Of course, many would disagree with me, and here in lies the 'problem': morality is subjective.
                              A Post-Primal PrimalPat

                              Do not allow yourself to become wrapped up in a food 'lifestyle'. That is ego, and you are not that.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by patski View Post
                                PrimalHunter: You don't go around talking about how moral you are for NOT killing people, do you? There's the difference. I don't think anyone in their right mind should walk around spewing verbal diarrhea about how MORAL they are, or how COMPASSIONATE they are. Those people who do are usually complete self-righteous, self-important assholes.

                                Moral according to whom? Compassionate according to whom? Who sets the standards?

                                If we're going to go there, then I think it's immoral NOT to eat animals, as to do so is to put your own body and mind in serious jeopardy. Of course, many would disagree with me, and here in lies the 'problem': morality is subjective.
                                I think there is a certain immorality in denying the place on the food chain into which we were born. No person can turn him or herself into an herbivore, regardless of how much more moral they think it might be to be prey rather than a predator.

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