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  • #61
    Originally posted by Derpamix View Post
    The fact glucagon is stimulated by stress means it's a stress hormone. As does the fact it's an adaptive hormone.

    Energy metabolism in trauma and sepsis: t... [Prog Clin Biol Res. 1983] - PubMed - NCBI

    Without insulin action, glucagon causes hyperglycemia. Fatty acid oxidation is by and large inefficient and increasingly activates pathways that cause oxidative stress, inflammation and apoptosis
    OK, you got a bunch of quotes without a source so I'm gonna just assume those are all Ray Peat quotes and not associated directly with your abstract link.

    Context truly is everything. We could call throwing 300 pounds on your back and making you go from a sit to stand position repeatedly a quite stressful event couldn't we? So obviously the hormone cascade necessary to burn glucose under these circumstances are stress hormones right? Thats the logic you article seems to be working with. I don't agree.

    "Fatty acid oxidation is by and large inefficient and increasingly activates pathways that cause oxidative stress, inflammation and apoptosis" This is a statement and not backed up by fact. We could argue this point for carbs also ....

    From Lucas Tufar (same fella that made the mathematical point that ketosis is not stressful):

    "You are correct, the generation of ROS is in the ETC. But it differs from electrons derived from glucose or fatty acids. Glucose generates more NADH+, which then transfer electrons to complex I (NADH dehydrogenase). Fatty acids produce almost an equal amount of NADH+ and FADH2, which utilizes preferentially complex II (succinate dehydrogenase).

    1 molecule of glucose:

    Ratio NADH+:FADH2 = 5:1

    1 molecule of palmitate:

    Ratio NADH+:FADH2 = 2:1

    Complex I is the main producer of ROS in the ETC, along with complex III. See:

    Mitochondria and reactive oxygen species. [Hypertension. 2009] - PubMed - NCBI

    Localization of the site of oxygen radic... [J Bioenerg Biomembr. 2000] - PubMed - NCBI

    Another complex which is utilized by catabolism of fatty acids is the electron-transferring flavoprotein.

    A good, comprehensive review can be found Glucose Hysteresis as a Mechanism in Dietary Restriction, Aging and Disease

    And, the basics http://themedicalbiochemistrypage.or...html#complexes "

    Since you just quoted some Ray I'll just qoute Lucas. But there are studies to back it up. Also appears to be a bit more recent. Not really trying to prolong the agony of this discussion again. Just posting this to show that there are more ways than you can shake a stick at to analyze stress and function in a system as complex as we are.
    Last edited by Neckhammer; 01-18-2013, 06:25 PM.

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    • #62
      Now can someone get back to answering OP....maybe ketostix? Any suggestions on a good blood ketone monitor? Come on guys....

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      • #63
        Citric acid cycle - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
        Electron transport chain - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

        Glucose is a more efficient energy source due to the promotion of co2, leading to a far better cellular respiration.

        I have several cross references to link, but as you said, and why I typically refrain from posting them, is it just turns into a PubMed war with abstracts taking precedence.
        Make America Great Again

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        • #64
          As for being in ketosis, I think ketostix are about as reliable as it gets, no?
          Make America Great Again

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          • #65
            Originally posted by Derpamix View Post
            As for being in ketosis, I think ketostix are about as reliable as it gets, no?
            Actually they say blood ketone levels are the only truly reliable method because the more adept you get to utilizing ketones for energy the less you actually excrete.

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            • #66
              No ketostix aren't terribly accurate. The blood monitors are the most accurate way to test. Ketostix will work well when first entering ketosis, but after your body stops wasting ketones and gets efficient with them, they don't necessarily show up enough in urine anymore.

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              • #67
                Ah, that makes sense
                Make America Great Again

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                • #68
                  Is the blood monitor the same device diabetics use to test themselves at home? We have one of those that another member of the family uses. This February I will have been Primal 2 years. I've lost 115 lbs so I just figured I might be in Ketosis. I used the test strips and they don't register even as dark as the lowest color on the scale.

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                  • #69
                    Originally posted by Rosemary 231 View Post
                    Is the blood monitor the same device diabetics use to test themselves at home? We have one of those that another member of the family uses. This February I will have been Primal 2 years. I've lost 115 lbs so I just figured I might be in Ketosis. I used the test strips and they don't register even as dark as the lowest color on the scale.
                    interested in this answer..
                    Karin


                    Created by MyFitnessPal.com - Free Calorie Counter

                    What am I doing? Depends on the day.

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                    • #70
                      I've heard that the ketostix can only indicate a certain type of ketone(s)? in the urine. The majority of the low-carb community people seems to agree that they basically only indicate how well hydrated a person is. Oh, and the accuracy of the aim.

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                      • #71
                        There are 2 primary ketones produced by the body - acetoacetate (AcAc) and beta-hydroxybutyrate (B-OHB). Ketostix measure AcAc and blood meters (which use different, more expensive strips than those used for blood glucose testing) measure B-OHB. The brain and (after an adaptation period of 2-3 weeks in most people) the muscles run on B-OHB and the body adapts to optimizing B-OHB production vice AcAc. That's why the Ketostix are a good measure early on (during the adaptation process) and not so indicative the longer you're in ketosis.

                        Much more info here (and better than anything I just said):

                        Ketosis

                        Ketosis

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                        • #72
                          As far as symptoms go, I spent over a year in nutritional ketosis (2011-'12), and I didn't have a single symptom. The only way I knew I was in ketosis, is that I made sure I ate no more than 50g. of carbs a day. For most people that's the ketosis threshold.

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                          • #73
                            Originally posted by Graycat View Post
                            As far as symptoms go, I spent over a year in nutritional ketosis (2011-'12), and I didn't have a single symptom. The only way I knew I was in ketosis, is that I made sure I ate no more than 50g. of carbs a day. For most people that's the ketosis threshold.
                            I'm quite sure I've been at 20g or less for the last 2 years so I suppose I must be in ketosis too.

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                            • #74
                              Staying under 50 grams per day is not a guarantee, especially if you are eating plenty of protein. More protein than necessary can kick you out of ketosis. The blood testing is the best way to know for sure. I'm going to order one.. I've been eating about 30-35 "net" carbs per day.

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                              • #75
                                Originally posted by Annlee View Post
                                There are 2 primary ketones produced by the body - acetoacetate (AcAc) and beta-hydroxybutyrate (B-OHB). Ketostix measure AcAc and blood meters (which use different, more expensive strips than those used for blood glucose testing) measure B-OHB. The brain and (after an adaptation period of 2-3 weeks in most people) the muscles run on B-OHB and the body adapts to optimizing B-OHB production vice AcAc. That's why the Ketostix are a good measure early on (during the adaptation process) and not so indicative the longer you're in ketosis.

                                Much more info here (and better than anything I just said):

                                Ketosis

                                Ketosis
                                Great articles. Looking forward to when all 4 parts are done so I can just link that for any future questions on ketosis

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