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  • #46
    Originally posted by Neckhammer View Post
    Would love to see any studies that prove otherwise.
    The way it works around here, is the person trying to defend a position has to do all the work and be prepared to have all their sources poo-poo'd by the naysayers. I say ketosis is bad...prove me wrong, even though I will argue against everything you say!

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    • #47
      Originally posted by Neckhammer View Post
      Not sure what confuses you about glucagon and gluconeogenesis choco? Yes yin and yang. Protein without the presence of carbs produces an insulin spike AND a release of glucagon. Without the glucagon you would end up hypoglycemic of course. But they both occur which is why insulin shuttles the protein without causing such an event. Also the reason post workout carbs to get protein to the muscle cells is silly. This is basic stuff. Doesn't mean you need to catabilize lean muscle rather than the ingested protein for glucose. There are actually quite a number of studies showing ketosis to be lean mass sparing. Would love to see any studies that prove otherwise.
      I was simply quoting what Paleobird posted.

      When blood sugar begins to get low, glucagon — the primary hormone responsible for ensuring adequate blood sugar — is produced. This promotes gluconeogenesis, and it happens before blood sugar gets low enough to trigger increases in cortisol.
      Glucagon breaks down lean tissue to create glucose. If you are in ketosis, glucagon is necessary to break down lean tissue to make the rest of the glucose necessary for brain function that ketones cannot compensate for. I prefer to get my glucose from carbohydrate, not lean muscle mass. That was my only point.
      Don't put your trust in anyone on this forum, including me. You are the key to your own success.

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      • #48
        Oh, I get it now! So any hormone that doesn't fit your current WOE is now a "stess" hormone...and since there is no agreed upon definition of such or at least without context you can use "stress hormone" with impunity. Seriously how is this any different from what you might consider the demonization of carbs/insulin? Your going to have to be far more specific i.e. concentration levels, peaks, time spent at various concentrations in response to ingestion....all those things you check for glucose intolerance and insulin level response are going to have to be studied and attributed to your so called "stress hormones" then your going to have to correlate those findings with ill health. Once you have that you will have to check those findings against a population of ketogenic dieters with a variety of athletic and lifestyle parameters. If you have that data please share!

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        • #49
          Originally posted by ChocoTaco369 View Post
          I was simply quoting what Paleobird posted.



          Glucagon breaks down lean tissue to create glucose. If you are in ketosis, glucagon is necessary to break down lean tissue to make the rest of the glucose necessary for brain function that ketones cannot compensate for. I prefer to get my glucose from carbohydrate, not lean muscle mass. That was my only point.

          Not really arguing for or against your carb intake. Really its just fine either way. I'm actually just trying to clear up the glucagon bit. So your saying a meal that has all protein and fat which inherently produces a glucagon release does not use that protein for any bit of the gluconeogenesis rather than breaking down lean mass?

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          • #50
            Originally posted by otzi View Post
            The way it works around here, is the person trying to defend a position has to do all the work and be prepared to have all their sources poo-poo'd by the naysayers. I say ketosis is bad...prove me wrong, even though I will argue against everything you say!
            Oh, now I get the beef industry thing. lol. I was gonna say, hell I posted that and didn't see anything about the beef industry.

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            • #51
              Originally posted by Sue View Post
              I thought Ayla was/is about 100kg ATM?
              PB means my height, I am very short.
              My BMR is 1600-1700 approx, from various calculators. Eating 1200 calories a day is no where near starvation.

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              • #52
                Originally posted by otzi View Post
                I'd listen to ChocoTaco before Paleobird, for sure...all this stuff she posted is just propaganda from the US Beef Council...
                I sure hope you're kidding Otzi. Hard to tell sometimes with you. I don't eat CAFO meat, ever.

                Originally posted by Neckhammer View Post
                Not sure what confuses you about glucagon and gluconeogenesis choco? Yes yin and yang. Protein without the presence of carbs produces an insulin spike AND a release of glucagon. Without the glucagon you would end up hypoglycemic of course. But they both occur which is why insulin shuttles the protein without causing such an event. Also the reason post workout carbs to get protein to the muscle cells is silly. This is basic stuff. Doesn't mean you need to catabilize lean muscle rather than the ingested protein for glucose. There are actually quite a number of studies showing ketosis to be lean mass sparing. Would love to see any studies that prove otherwise.
                Yes, the muscle catabolism nonsense is the finest in BB site bro-sci.

                Originally posted by Neckhammer View Post
                Not really arguing for or against your carb intake. Really its just fine either way. I'm actually just trying to clear up the glucagon bit. So your saying a meal that has all protein and fat which inherently produces a glucagon release does not use that protein for any bit of the gluconeogenesis rather than breaking down lean mass?
                *Snort*

                And really Choco, I don't care if you or anyone else does higher carb Primal. I'm not trying to tell you "UR ding it wrong". You, however are doing exactly that to those who choose the lower end of the carb spectrum. It's tedious. Please give it a rest.

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                • #53
                  Ok, so um, should I conclude that indications of ketosis include bad smelling breath and urine?

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                  • #54
                    ^^^
                    Hahaha!

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                    • #55
                      Originally posted by FireFinder View Post
                      Ok, so um, should I conclude that indications of ketosis include bad smelling breath and urine?
                      LOL....good point OP: will somebody please answer this fellas question now?

                      I would actually just assume that if you have kept carbs bellow 50g for more than 3 days you are in ketosis, but I will leave a more nuanced answer to those who actually measure for it.

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                      • #56
                        Originally posted by otzi View Post
                        I'd listen to ChocoTaco before Paleobird, for sure...all this stuff she posted is just propaganda from the US Beef Council...
                        Well said! The Paleobird usually have a lot to say, and usually she is mostly wrong...
                        "All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident."

                        - Schopenhauer

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                        • #57
                          Originally posted by Gorbag View Post
                          Well said! The Paleobird usually have a lot to say, and usually she is mostly wrong...
                          That was snotty. If you would like to show me what is wrong please do, but I would hope such schoolyard name calling would be beneath even you.

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                          • #58
                            Chocotaco, thanks for the info. I actually do alot of that already! I eat salt to taste, which has always been on the heavy side, and I've used Himalayan for years now. I cook with coconut oil (albeit refined). We have milk goats and cows so I use grass fed cream. I eat mostly beef, and right now it's grass fed because we had a bull butchered. While back. When we run out of our own we do eat store bought. Chicken and fish are not common, although I like both. Also eat pastured eggs, most of the time from our own chickens, that breakfast just about every day for me. I'm also taking a supplement that includes kelp but not quie in those amounts.

                            Of course I'm not eating the fruit.. Don't eat nuts much though I was recently. I eat a ton of saturated fat and have for a while. The only unsaturated I had today, iirc, was an avacado and one tablespoon grapes seed mayo. I had 50 grams of saturated fat today. Greens, was eating them, not quite as much as of late, been eating more squash and okra lately.

                            I don't really think my thyroid is low. I work outside a lot and I'm handling the cold really well this winter. I had one winter a few years back where I was having a tereible time with the cold, but not since.

                            Oh don't take cod liver oil, rather I take salmon oil. I don't eat liver but have some from that bull in the freezer and was thinking the other day how I ought to choke some down

                            Plan is to add some fruits and potatoes after my 10k in march and see how I do at that time.
                            Last edited by AshleyL; 01-18-2013, 04:30 PM.

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                            • #59
                              Originally posted by Paleobird View Post
                              That was snotty. If you would like to show me what is wrong please do, but I would hope such schoolyard name calling would be beneath even you.
                              Yeah, maybe a little "snotty," but I didn't say you are always wrong though! Just let me say that I am glad that I am not your professor, and that it probably would be more than a fulltime job if I should go through all the postings of yours to show the places were you are mistaken...
                              "All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident."

                              - Schopenhauer

                              Comment


                              • #60
                                Originally posted by Neckhammer View Post
                                Oh, I get it now! So any hormone that doesn't fit your current WOE is now a "stess" hormone...and since there is no agreed upon definition of such or at least without context you can use "stress hormone" with impunity. Seriously how is this any different from what you might consider the demonization of carbs/insulin? Your going to have to be far more specific i.e. concentration levels, peaks, time spent at various concentrations in response to ingestion....all those things you check for glucose intolerance and insulin level response are going to have to be studied and attributed to your so called "stress hormones" then your going to have to correlate those findings with ill health. Once you have that you will have to check those findings against a population of ketogenic dieters with a variety of athletic and lifestyle parameters. If you have that data please share!
                                The fact glucagon is stimulated by stress means it's a stress hormone. As does the fact it's an adaptive hormone.

                                "When conscious, lightly restrained primates were startled by noise, the level of glucagon in the plasma rose rapidly and this rise was followed by an elevation of blood glucose but not of plasma insulin. In anaesthetized animals similar effects were produced by unpleasant stimuli (rectal distension, drilling a burr hole in the skull or the passage of an electric current through the head). These experiments show that glucagon is rapidly released in response to various types of stress."

                                Energy metabolism in trauma and sepsis: t... [Prog Clin Biol Res. 1983] - PubMed - NCBI

                                Without insulin action, glucagon causes hyperglycemia. Fatty acid oxidation is by and large inefficient and increasingly activates pathways that cause oxidative stress, inflammation and apoptosis

                                “Starving for sugar causes the body to break down proteins to make glucose, weakening the organism’s resistance, providing amino acids for tumor growth, and probably providing ammonia and other things that stimulate growth and interfere with differentiation. The liberated free fatty acids in either sugar deprivation or diabetes (in which cells are starved for glucose) stimulate tumor growth.”

                                “”Cancer metabolism” or stress metabolism typically involves an excess of the adaptive hormones, resulting from an imbalance of the demands made on the organism and the resources available to the organism. Excessive stimulation depletes glucose and produces lactic acid, and causes cortisol to increase, causing a shift to the consumption of fat and protein rather than glucose. Increased cortisol activates the Randle effect (the inhibition of glucose oxidation by free fatty acids), accelerates the breakdown of protein into amino acids, and activates the enzyme fatty acid synthase, which produces fatty acids from amino acids and pyruvate, to be oxidized in a “futile cycle,” producing heat, and increasing the liberation of ammonia from the amino acids. Ammonia suppresses respiratory, and stimulates glycolytic, activity.”

                                “In Warburg’s view, cancer has a unique requirement for glucose, because of its “respiratory defect.” The ability of cancer to consume large amounts of glucose means that the body interprets cancer as stress, since the waste of glucose is the key feature of stress. The body’s response to decreasing glucose is to produce larger amounts of adrenal hormones, especially cortisol. Cortisol raises the blood glucose supply by converting tissue proteins into sugar. This hormonal response to the sugar appetite of cancer is the main cause of the wasting syndrome which makes cancer so serious, and which destroys the thymus gland, causing the immune system to lose its guidance. V. S. Shapot’s work, showing the involvement of glucose and cortisol in cancer, provides part of the context for understanding the implications of Warburg’s view of cancer as a “respiratory defect.”"

                                “Ketones are very protective as a fuel, but the problem is that they are produced as a result of metabolic stress. If the liver is extremely good, it can store enough glycogen for a day, but chronic, frequent, stress usually damages the liver’s ability to store glycogen.”
                                Make America Great Again

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