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  • #31
    Originally posted by Paleobird View Post
    I climbed Mt Kilimangaro in ketosis. Yes I realize that weight lifting is a different kind of muscle and yes requires some more carbs if you do it often but don't tell me that someone who can make it to the top of the world's tallest freestanding mountain is not in "respectable" physical condition.
    You're missing my point.

    You don't need carbohydrate to function. You don't need carbohydrate to be a respectable athlete. You don't need carbohydrate to be relatively healthy. A person eating primally in ketosis is going to be much healthier than someone eating a balanced diet on the SAD. However, outside of very rare outliers, no matter how healthy you strive to be in ketosis, you will never be as healthy as you are out of ketosis. Ketosis, no matter what, is always a ball and chain. It is always holding you back. Because it is almost never the state your body wants to be in. You can function well on ketosis, but you will never function optimally. It takes its toll.
    Don't put your trust in anyone on this forum, including me. You are the key to your own success.

    Comment


    • #32
      Originally posted by Zach View Post
      Also if you google starvation mode calories, 1200 is the cutoff for women and 1600 is for men.
      If you google "the moon is an alien spaceship" you will get millions of results. It doesn't make it true. It is individually based. 1200 kcal for me would be a disaster outside of a span of a few weeks. For a middle aged woman standing 5'2" and not doing a lick of exercise, it may be advisable.
      Originally posted by Neckhammer View Post
      lol....just read the whole thread. So a very innocent post by OP is slammed upon by every sugar pusher on this site. NICE GUYS! Way to stay relevant.
      The community in general has been undergoing a nice transformation over the past year. The staunch low carbers are slowly being weeded out. Frankly, it is refreshing. The community is starting to embrace common sense and intuitive eating instead of platitudes and fear mongering. Very few people should be considering ketogenic diets. At least that's my opinion. I'm 5'7" and moderately active at best and it takes its toll...quickly.
      Last edited by ChocoTaco369; 01-18-2013, 09:56 AM.
      Don't put your trust in anyone on this forum, including me. You are the key to your own success.

      Comment


      • #33
        Originally posted by ChocoTaco369 View Post
        The community in general has been undergoing a nice transformation over the past year. The staunch low carbers are slowly being weeded out. Frankly, it is refreshing. The community is starting to embrace common sense and intuitive eating instead of platitudes and fear mongering. Very few people should be considering ketogenic diets. At least that's my opinion. I'm 5'7" and moderately active at best and it takes its toll...quickly.
        I had been eating under 50g carbs from Oct 2010 to Oct 2012, I lost a lot of weight, felt decent, and worked out regular. I went from not being able to do 1 pullup to being able to do 20 in a row in near perfect form. I was also waking up at 3am almost every night, experiencing rapid weight fluctuations if I ate off-plan, and was pretty sore in between workouts.

        I lost my fear of carbs, starch in particular, last fall, but wanted to try a ketogenic diet before adding potatoes to my daily eating. I went full-on keto from mid-Oct til mid-Dec 2012. Without working out, I was experiencing muscle soreness like never before. My sleep was even more horrible. I could workout maybe once a week, at half-throttle.

        Within days of eating potatoes, all that went away. Within weeks of 100-150g carbs, mostly all potato carbs, I was sleeping through the night, able to workout every day if I wanted, and making gains in workouts.

        I think if the body isn't getting 100-150g of starchy carbs a day, it craps out in some way. I think ketogenic diest have a place for medical conditions and people can learn to live with it, especially if it staves off brain problems. I think LC and VLC diets are good for weightloss and for converting from SAD to a healthier diet. A long-term diet, for healthy, active people, is going to be best accomplished with ample starch.

        I also think we need to stop lumping carbs together in a big pile. We should be discussing sugars, starch, fiber, and RS, etc...

        Comment


        • #34
          Originally posted by ChocoTaco369 View Post
          If you google "the moon is an alien spaceship" you will get millions of results. It doesn't make it true. It is individually based. 1200 kcal for me would be a disaster outside of a span of a few weeks. For a middle aged woman standing 5'2" and not doing a lick of exercise, it may be advisable.

          The community in general has been undergoing a nice transformation over the past year. The staunch low carbers are slowly being weeded out.
          As always Choco... you have a way with words.! That last comment made me envisage you in an army uniform sitting with a glass of brandy and applauding your fellow officers at how the rebel vermin are gradually being killed off. LOL.
          "I think the basic anti-aging diet is also the best diet for prevention and treatment of diabetes, scleroderma, and the various "connective tissue diseases." This would emphasize high protein, low unsaturated fats, low iron, and high antioxidant consumption, with a moderate or low starch consumption.

          In practice, this means that a major part of the diet should be milk, cheese, eggs, shellfish, fruits and coconut oil, with vitamin E and salt as the safest supplements."

          - Ray Peat

          Comment


          • #35
            Originally posted by YogaBare View Post
            As always Choco... you have a way with words.! That last comment made me envisage you in an army uniform sitting with a glass of brandy and applauding your fellow officers at how the rebel vermin are gradually being killed off. LOL.
            Look, if the average sentiment of the community was fear of fat, I'd be cheering as the low-fatters are being weeded out. I complain about low-fatters far more than low-carbers. Low-fatters are everywhere. Passing through an aisle at a grocery store drives me nuts as "low fat!", "fat free!" "heart healthy!," "low cholesterol!" and all the other bullshit is written on everything with an AHA check mark. This community just happens to embrace fat and fear carbs in general, so that's why you see this side of me. The reality is in the past 48 hours, I've eaten 20 eggs with 4 oz of goat cheese, all cooked in Kerrygold. That's a lot of fat and cholesterol in 2 days.

            It is exclusionary dieting that is the issue. If you follow a diet that includes the words "high" or "low," it's crap. Just. Eat. Real. Food. Every time I see a post about someone eating a thousand calories of bacon or coconut oil to kill a craving for evil, evil fruit, I want to put my foot through my computer monitor.
            Don't put your trust in anyone on this forum, including me. You are the key to your own success.

            Comment


            • #36
              Dude, I'm doing the test run for 33:33:33 based on your posts... but you still make me laugh!

              Originally posted by ChocoTaco369 View Post
              Every time I see a post about someone eating a thousand calories of bacon or coconut oil to kill a craving for evil, evil fruit, I want to put my foot through my computer monitor.
              See what I mean? Way.with.words.
              "I think the basic anti-aging diet is also the best diet for prevention and treatment of diabetes, scleroderma, and the various "connective tissue diseases." This would emphasize high protein, low unsaturated fats, low iron, and high antioxidant consumption, with a moderate or low starch consumption.

              In practice, this means that a major part of the diet should be milk, cheese, eggs, shellfish, fruits and coconut oil, with vitamin E and salt as the safest supplements."

              - Ray Peat

              Comment


              • #37
                Chocotaco, I have a really hard time believing the stress hormone thing. I had adrenal exhaustion/chronic fatigue and tend towards poor adrenal function... I will get tapped out in the stress department easily. When i do strength training or any kind of intense type exercise, i will do best with a week before i do it again. i dont nomrally recover well. i get sore easy. until now, i dont get sore as easy and im getting over it faster.I used to hurt all over, and had numbness in my toe after standing for a while, numbness in my hands and arms in the morning and sometimes all day. This has improved with lower carb, and now I'm eating for ketosis. I have no desire to do this forever, I love potatoes and fruit way too much. I'm hoping to actually fix my problem and be able to enjoy healthy carb sources again. So I have no particular attachment to this ketosis stuff. But as someone who is particularly sensitive to stress and not normally able to deal with stress long at all before I crash and burn, I'm not feeling it. Could be the inflammation from grain and such on m system with insulin resistance was simply MORE stressful I don't know. I just know that for the first time since I was a kid, I get to feel normal. I can lose weight like a normal person, just by eating less and exersizing! Perhaps after resting my sugar burning system and balancing out my omegas in my diet, I will find I can eat the full spectrum of "primal" foods and continue to function this well. So goes my hope.

                But I think there have been examples of people's like the Inuit that did fine long term low carb. Indeed I have American Indian on both sides of my family. My appearance genes are totally European, but I think my metabolic ones are American Indian. I'm made to survive starvation. I'm an "easy keeper"

                Sorry for typos- on my phone.
                Last edited by AshleyL; 01-18-2013, 11:14 AM.

                Comment


                • #38
                  Originally posted by AshleyL View Post
                  Chocotaco, I have a really hard time believing the stress hormone thing. I had adrenal exhaustion/chronic fatigue and tend towards poor adrenal function... I will get tapped out in the stress department easily. When i do strength training or any kind of intense type exercise, i will do best with a week before i do it again. i dont nomrally recover well. i get sore easy. until now, i dont get sore as easy and im getting over it faster.I used to hurt all over, and had numbness in my toe after standing for a while, numbness in my hands and arms in the morning and sometimes all day. This has improved with lower carb, and now I'm eating for ketosis. I have no desire to do this forever, I love potatoes and fruit way too much. I'm hoping to actually fix my problem and be able to enjoy healthy carb sources again. So I have no particular attachment to this ketosis stuff. But as someone who is particularly sensitive to stress and not normally able to deal with stress long at all before I crash and burn, I'm not feeling it. Could be the inflammation from grain and such on m system with insulin resistance was simply MORE stressful I don't know. I just know that for the first time since I was a kid, I get to feel normal. I can lose weight like a normal person, just by eating less and exersizing! Perhaps after resting my sugar burning system and balancing out my omegas in my diet, I will find I can eat the full spectrum of "primal" foods and continue to function this well. So goes my hope.

                  But I think there have been examples of people's like the Inuit that did fine long term low carb. Indeed I have American I Dian on both sides of my family. My appearance genes are totally European, but I think my metabolic ones are American Indian. I'm made to survive starvation.
                  I would tell you to try this every day for 30 days:

                  - Liberally salt your food. Use either a colored salt like Himalayan pink salt or regular iodized salt. Do not use sea salt. You need the iodine.
                  - Supplement with 1,000-2,000mg of kelp a day.
                  - Take a selenium and copper supplement daily, or eat a small serving of liver 1-2 times a week and 2 raw brazil nuts every day if you'd rather not supplement. An 8 oz beef or calf liver is probably good for 2 weeks.
                  - Don't eat any chicken, pork or fish. Eat solely beef and lamb, preferably grassfed. The other exception are pastured eggs. Try and squeeze some in regularly each week for the Vitamin A (retinol, not beta carotene).
                  - Make sure to eat a serving of starch and 1-2 servings of fruit daily, preferably citrus fruits or melons like oranges, cantaloupes, mangoes, watermelon, honeydew, etc.
                  - Don't eat any crucifers (cabbage, broccoli, spinach, kale, etc). Actually, just avoid greens for a month. Eat fruit, roots and tubers, squashes and tomatoes/peppers (which are technically fruits) instead.
                  - Avoid all nuts, avocados, olives and all their oils.
                  - As typical, avoid grains, legumes, vegetable oils, etc. Exception: the 2 brazil nuts if you don't want to supplement with a pill
                  - Only cook in butter, ghee or coconut oil.
                  - Consider taking two of these pills a day:

                  Carlson Cod Liver Oil Gems

                  I'm normally against fish oil supplementation, but cod liver is kind of the exception. The goal is to get a natural source of Vitamin A (again, retinol, not beta carotene) so the tiny amount of EPA and DHA being isolated...well, I think the benefit may outweigh the risk, and it comes packed in a lot of naturally occurring Vitamin E to minimize the damage.

                  What I'm banking on:

                  1.) You're deficient in iodine, Vitamin A (retinol), copper and selenium. The additional iodine, selenium, copper, Vitamin A and salt should boost your thyroid.
                  2.) Your intake of unsaturated:saturated fat is too high and you should go on a high saturated fat diet with very low polyunsaturated (and even lower in monounsaturated) fat to compensate.
                  3.) Greens are notoriously anti-thyroid. Particularly crucifers (they are goitrogens). Squash, roots, tubers and fruits are notoriously pro-thyroid.

                  At least that's my opinion.
                  Last edited by ChocoTaco369; 01-18-2013, 11:32 AM.
                  Don't put your trust in anyone on this forum, including me. You are the key to your own success.

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Originally posted by AshleyL View Post
                    Chocotaco, I have a really hard time believing the stress hormone thing. I had adrenal exhaustion/chronic fatigue and tend towards poor adrenal function... I will get tapped out in the stress department easily. When i do strength training or any kind of intense type exercise, i will do best with a week before i do it again. i dont nomrally recover well. i get sore easy. until now, i dont get sore as easy and im getting over it faster.I used to hurt all over, and had numbness in my toe after standing for a while, numbness in my hands and arms in the morning and sometimes all day. This has improved with lower carb, and now I'm eating for ketosis. I have no desire to do this forever, I love potatoes and fruit way too much. I'm hoping to actually fix my problem and be able to enjoy healthy carb sources again. So I have no particular attachment to this ketosis stuff. But as someone who is particularly sensitive to stress and not normally able to deal with stress long at all before I crash and burn, I'm not feeling it. Could be the inflammation from grain and such on m system with insulin resistance was simply MORE stressful I don't know. I just know that for the first time since I was a kid, I get to feel normal. I can lose weight like a normal person, just by eating less and exersizing! Perhaps after resting my sugar burning system and balancing out my omegas in my diet, I will find I can eat the full spectrum of "primal" foods and continue to function this well. So goes my hope.

                    But I think there have been examples of people's like the Inuit that did fine long term low carb. Indeed I have American Indian on both sides of my family. My appearance genes are totally European, but I think my metabolic ones are American Indian. I'm made to survive starvation. I'm an "easy keeper"

                    Sorry for typos- on my phone.
                    Ya, the "stress" deal is relative to your other lifestyle factors and in no way can anybody prove that being in ketosis is equivocally more stressful than not being in ketosis. Sorry there is just no way to prove it. Mathematically? Nope, posted on that earlier. Hormonally? No not there either, last page also. Metabolically or oxidatively? Not based on studies like this:

                    Glucose Hysteresis as a Mechanism in Dietary Restriction, Aging and Disease

                    "First, metabolites induce the machinery of their own metabolism. Second, induction of gene expression by metabolites can entail a form of molecular memory called hysteresis. When applied to glucose-regulated gene expression, these two principles suggest a mechanism whereby repetitive exposure to postprandial excursions of glucose leads to an age-related increase in glycolytic capacity (and reduction in β-oxidation of free fatty acids), which in turn leads to an increased generation of oxidative damage and a decreased capacity to respond to oxidative damage, independent of metabolic rate."

                    We could go round and round (and have). The fact is that you can not claim "optimal" for either being in or out of ketosis without taking all factors of lifestyle and previous health status into consideration. Thats why it is so individual and that is also why there is such a variance in peoples experience with it.

                    Oh, and there are literally hundreds of known societies to have thrived on low carb so don't feel that you need to just bank on the Inuit . They are just the most well known and survived in quite a harsh environment (hence the haggard look).

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Originally posted by ChocoTaco369 View Post
                      You're missing my point.

                      You don't need carbohydrate to function. You don't need carbohydrate to be a respectable athlete. You don't need carbohydrate to be relatively healthy. A person eating primally in ketosis is going to be much healthier than someone eating a balanced diet on the SAD. However, outside of very rare outliers, no matter how healthy you strive to be in ketosis, you will never be as healthy as you are out of ketosis. Ketosis, no matter what, is always a ball and chain. It is always holding you back. Because it is almost never the state your body wants to be in. You can function well on ketosis, but you will never function optimally. It takes its toll.
                      This is a load of bull

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        From the link Neckhammer posted above (kinda science-y for the bro-sci crowd I know, but well worth a read)

                        Ketogenic Diets, Cortisol, and Stress: Part I — Gluconeogenesis
                        One recent myth, prevalent in the Paleo Diet community, is that the keto diet is stressful to the body ¹. This idea arises from misunderstandings about cortisol — “the stress hormone”. There are two different arguments we know of, and this post will address the first one, the “gluconeogenesis requires cortisol” myth.

                        This myth comes from a mistaken chain of reasoning with three steps in it, only one of which is correct:
                        On a keto diet, because you get very little glucose from carbohydrate in your diet, your body makes its own glucose on demand, in a process called gluconeogenesis. (This is correct.)
                        Gluconeogenesis requires elevated cortisol. (This is not correct.)
                        Chronically elevated cortisol damages the body. (This is not precisely true. In a subsequent article in this series, we will explore the relationship between cortisol levels and health. Nonetheless, it makes no difference for this argument — because gluconeogenesis does not in fact require excess cortisol.)

                        Gluconeogenesis does not require high levels of cortisol.
                        When blood sugar begins to get low, glucagon — the primary hormone responsible for ensuring adequate blood sugar — is produced. This promotes gluconeogenesis, and it happens before blood sugar gets low enough to trigger increases in cortisol.
                        When blood sugar gets so low that excess cortisol is produced, it is also low enough that symptoms of hypoglycemia (“low blood sugar”) appear — anxiety, palpitations, hunger, sweating, irritability, tremor; or in more extreme cases, dizziness, tingling, blurred vision, difficulty in thinking, and faintness. So hypoglycemic signs are a good way to judge if cortisol is involved.
                        Since keto dieters do not normally appear to suffer from hypoglycemic episodes, especially when eating enough protein and not fasting for long periods (indeed, hypoglycemic episodes appear to be reduced by keto diets), it is unlikely that cortisol comes into play to regulate blood sugar for normal keto dieters.

                        Gluconeogenesis

                        On a keto diet, your body makes the modest amount of glucose it needs out of protein in a process called gluconeogenesis (GNG). There is a widely-held misconception that for GNG to occur, there must be high levels of the stress hormone cortisol in the blood. This mistake comes out of the fact that cortisol stimulates GNG. Therefore, it is reasoned, whenever you rely on GNG, your body has to produce and circulate more cortisol. This, however, is like arguing that since a reliable way to make people laugh is to tickle them, that every time you hear someone laughing it means they are being tickled. It turns out there are other ways to make people laugh, and there are other hormones that induce GNG.

                        The usual hormone to stimulate GNG is glucagon
                        . Glucagon is produced when blood sugar gets low, and its primary function is to restore blood sugar to optimal levels. Cortisol levels rise when blood sugar reaches an even lower level. That is, the blood sugar threshold for cortisol production (55 mg/dL) is lower than the threshold for glucagon (65 mg/dL) ².

                        In fact, it turns out that the level of blood sugar that has to be reached to significantly increase cortisol is so low that clinical symptoms of hypoglycemia also start to appear at that level ³. Not only are reports of hypoglycemic episodes in studies of keto dieters rare, it has been known since at least 1936 that keto diets with adequate protein help prevent hypoglycemia ⁶.

                        Summary:
                        GNG is stimulated by glucagon, and as long as the GNG response to glucagon is enough to restore blood sugar before it goes down to about 55mg/dL, cortisol will not be called upon to regulate blood sugar.
                        By the time blood sugar levels have gotten so low that cortisol is deployed to help fix it, hypoglycemic symptoms also appear.
                        Keto dieters don't appear to experience hypoglycemic symptoms (except in some cases involving inadequate protein or prolonged fasting). In fact keto diets, especially protein-adequate keto diets, have been used to reduce the occurrence of hypoglycemic episodes in susceptible people.
                        Therefore it is not true that because keto diets use GNG for blood sugar regulation, they cause stress to the body.

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Originally posted by BeatlesFan View Post
                          This is a load of bull
                          Why? If ketosis is the preferred method of metabolism, why isn't it...the preferred method of metabolism?
                          Don't put your trust in anyone on this forum, including me. You are the key to your own success.

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            Not sure what your source is...
                            Originally posted by Paleobird View Post
                            GNG is stimulated by glucagon, and as long as the GNG response to glucagon is enough to restore blood sugar before it goes down to about 55mg/dL, cortisol will not be called upon to regulate blood sugar..
                            ...but

                            Glucagon is a catabolic (part of metabolism that breaks down larger molecules) protein hormone that works together with its anabolic counterpart, insulin, to regulate the levels of glucose in the bloodstream. It is produced by the alpha cells of the islets of Langerhans in the pancreas of vertebrates. Working to opposite effect from insulin, glucagon acts to increase blood sugar levels by stimulating the breakdown of liver glycogen to glucose (glycogenolysis), increasing release of glucose from the liver into the blood, preventing the liver from storing glucose, and increasing glucose formation in the liver from dietary protein (amino acids) and fats (Bender and Bender 2005; MedNet 2001). Glucagon also transiently paralyzes the muscles of the intestines.
                            Glucagon - New World Encyclopedia

                            Isulin and glucagon have a yin-yang relationship. Glucagon is a catabolic hormone - it breaks down muscle tissue. It works to fight hypoglycemia by destroying lean mass and breaking it down into glucose to combat hypoglycemia.

                            Glucagon is often deployed in levels of high stress - like when insulin and blood glucose drops too low. This in and of itself is a marker of stress. If you are constantly in a state of gluconeogenesis, you are constantly in a catabolic state.

                            This is where the logic falls apart. From your quote:

                            On a keto diet, your body makes the modest amount of glucose it needs out of protein in a process called gluconeogenesis (GNG).
                            A good reference is Mark Sisson himself.

                            https://www.marksdailyapple.com/how-...n-really-need/

                            Your brain needs around 200g of glucose to function. According to Mark, on a low carb diet, you need around 120g due to modest ketone production and in "maximum ketosis" (whatever that is), you'd need at least 30g in theory.

                            The ironic part is, 200g of carbs (modest by the article's own admission) would give many low-carbers a panic attack. Even 30g is too much to keep most people in "max ketosis." I had to be <30g to produce any ketones according to test strips as a moderately active young male. Imagine what a sedentary female needs.

                            The reason why you don't see ketogenic dieting in the athletic community is because it is notoriously muscle wasting. And this is what annoys me about the average paleo. We are part of a community that is against processed food because they feel it reduces lean muscle mass, and they succumb to an eating plan that is notoriously lean-mass-destructive. Ladies and gentlemen, this is why we have a black eye in the fitness community.
                            Don't put your trust in anyone on this forum, including me. You are the key to your own success.

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              Originally posted by Paleobird View Post
                              From the link Neckhammer posted above (kinda science-y for the bro-sci crowd I know, but well worth a read)

                              Ketogenic Diets, Cortisol, and Stress: Part I — Gluconeogenesis
                              One recent myth, prevalent in the Paleo Diet community, is that the keto diet is stressful to the body ¹. This idea arises from misunderstandings about cortisol — “the stress hormone”. There are two different arguments we know of, and this post will address the first one, the “gluconeogenesis requires cortisol” myth.

                              This myth comes from a mistaken chain of reasoning with three steps in it, only one of which is correct:
                              On a keto diet, because you get very little glucose from carbohydrate in your diet, your body makes its own glucose on demand, in a process called gluconeogenesis. (This is correct.)
                              Gluconeogenesis requires elevated cortisol. (This is not correct.)
                              Chronically elevated cortisol damages the body. (This is not precisely true. In a subsequent article in this series, we will explore the relationship between cortisol levels and health. Nonetheless, it makes no difference for this argument — because gluconeogenesis does not in fact require excess cortisol.)

                              Gluconeogenesis does not require high levels of cortisol.
                              When blood sugar begins to get low, glucagon — the primary hormone responsible for ensuring adequate blood sugar — is produced. This promotes gluconeogenesis, and it happens before blood sugar gets low enough to trigger increases in cortisol.
                              When blood sugar gets so low that excess cortisol is produced, it is also low enough that symptoms of hypoglycemia (“low blood sugar”) appear — anxiety, palpitations, hunger, sweating, irritability, tremor; or in more extreme cases, dizziness, tingling, blurred vision, difficulty in thinking, and faintness. So hypoglycemic signs are a good way to judge if cortisol is involved.
                              Since keto dieters do not normally appear to suffer from hypoglycemic episodes, especially when eating enough protein and not fasting for long periods (indeed, hypoglycemic episodes appear to be reduced by keto diets), it is unlikely that cortisol comes into play to regulate blood sugar for normal keto dieters.

                              Gluconeogenesis

                              On a keto diet, your body makes the modest amount of glucose it needs out of protein in a process called gluconeogenesis (GNG). There is a widely-held misconception that for GNG to occur, there must be high levels of the stress hormone cortisol in the blood. This mistake comes out of the fact that cortisol stimulates GNG. Therefore, it is reasoned, whenever you rely on GNG, your body has to produce and circulate more cortisol. This, however, is like arguing that since a reliable way to make people laugh is to tickle them, that every time you hear someone laughing it means they are being tickled. It turns out there are other ways to make people laugh, and there are other hormones that induce GNG.

                              The usual hormone to stimulate GNG is glucagon
                              . Glucagon is produced when blood sugar gets low, and its primary function is to restore blood sugar to optimal levels. Cortisol levels rise when blood sugar reaches an even lower level. That is, the blood sugar threshold for cortisol production (55 mg/dL) is lower than the threshold for glucagon (65 mg/dL) ².

                              In fact, it turns out that the level of blood sugar that has to be reached to significantly increase cortisol is so low that clinical symptoms of hypoglycemia also start to appear at that level ³. Not only are reports of hypoglycemic episodes in studies of keto dieters rare, it has been known since at least 1936 that keto diets with adequate protein help prevent hypoglycemia ⁶.

                              Summary:
                              GNG is stimulated by glucagon, and as long as the GNG response to glucagon is enough to restore blood sugar before it goes down to about 55mg/dL, cortisol will not be called upon to regulate blood sugar.
                              By the time blood sugar levels have gotten so low that cortisol is deployed to help fix it, hypoglycemic symptoms also appear.
                              Keto dieters don't appear to experience hypoglycemic symptoms (except in some cases involving inadequate protein or prolonged fasting). In fact keto diets, especially protein-adequate keto diets, have been used to reduce the occurrence of hypoglycemic episodes in susceptible people.
                              Therefore it is not true that because keto diets use GNG for blood sugar regulation, they cause stress to the body.
                              I'd listen to ChocoTaco before Paleobird, for sure...all this stuff she posted is just propaganda from the US Beef Council...

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                Originally posted by ChocoTaco369 View Post
                                Not sure what your source is...

                                ...but


                                Glucagon - New World Encyclopedia

                                Isulin and glucagon have a yin-yang relationship. Glucagon is a catabolic hormone - it breaks down muscle tissue. It works to fight hypoglycemia by destroying lean mass and breaking it down into glucose to combat hypoglycemia.

                                Glucagon is often deployed in levels of high stress - like when insulin and blood glucose drops too low. This in and of itself is a marker of stress. If you are constantly in a state of gluconeogenesis, you are constantly in a catabolic state.

                                This is where the logic falls apart. From your quote:



                                A good reference is Mark Sisson himself.

                                https://www.marksdailyapple.com/how-...n-really-need/

                                Your brain needs around 200g of glucose to function. According to Mark, on a low carb diet, you need around 120g due to modest ketone production and in "maximum ketosis" (whatever that is), you'd need at least 30g in theory.

                                The ironic part is, 200g of carbs (modest by the article's own admission) would give many low-carbers a panic attack. Even 30g is too much to keep most people in "max ketosis." I had to be <30g to produce any ketones according to test strips as a moderately active young male. Imagine what a sedentary female needs.

                                The reason why you don't see ketogenic dieting in the athletic community is because it is notoriously muscle wasting. And this is what annoys me about the average paleo. We are part of a community that is against processed food because they feel it reduces lean muscle mass, and they succumb to an eating plan that is notoriously lean-mass-destructive. Ladies and gentlemen, this is why we have a black eye in the fitness community.
                                Not sure what confuses you about glucagon and gluconeogenesis choco? Yes yin and yang. Protein without the presence of carbs produces an insulin spike AND a release of glucagon. Without the glucagon you would end up hypoglycemic of course. But they both occur which is why insulin shuttles the protein without causing such an event. Also the reason post workout carbs to get protein to the muscle cells is silly. This is basic stuff. Doesn't mean you need to catabilize lean muscle rather than the ingested protein for glucose. There are actually quite a number of studies showing ketosis to be lean mass sparing. Would love to see any studies that prove otherwise.

                                Comment

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