Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Resistant Starch - A Solution In Search of a Problem

Collapse
X
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • #91
    I'll tell you what, I love me some cold hash browns. I ate some for lunch today - I grated 3 white potatoes and 1 small onion, threw in some salt, pepper and extra hot chili powder and baked til crispy last night - and woo boy, good stuff. But raw potato...eek. I will pass on that, I don't care if it has some kind of magical weight loss property (which I'm sure it doesn't). I'd rather just skip a meal
    Don't put your trust in anyone on this forum, including me. You are the key to your own success.

    Comment


    • #92
      Originally posted by ChocoTaco369 View Post
      I'll tell you what, I love me some cold hash browns. I ate some for lunch today - I grated 3 white potatoes and 1 small onion, threw in some salt, pepper and extra hot chili powder and baked til crispy last night - and woo boy, good stuff. But raw potato...eek. I will pass on that, I don't care if it has some kind of magical weight loss property (which I'm sure it doesn't). I'd rather just skip a meal
      Next time you are cutting up potatoes for cooking, take a nice 1/4" slice, sprinkle with a little seasalt and crunch away. Very tasty. And if there's some magical worm food in it to feed your gut friends, even better.

      Comment


      • #93
        Originally posted by otzi View Post
        Golly, guys, give me a break!

        Here's where this whole mess started and then I'm done:

        I made an observation a while back that RS is considered healthful to gut flora and colon health, but that the RS is almost completely absent from the Primal Blueprint diet. I then learnt that potatoes and rice contain RS, and that including them in your diet will at least give you SAD levels of a safer RS than grains. Eating cooked and cooled rice or potatoes ups that a bit more.

        How this took such a terrible turn, I will never know...I feel I was baited into this by PKLOPP who is still sore everyone called him a douchebag for saying he was doing a potato diet, but including meat and dairy.

        I stand behind my assertion: "RS is important for gut health and may impart beneficial metabolism improvement. Therefore we should seek out and eat PB approved sources like potato and rice"

        That's all!
        The fundamental problem, OTZI, is that you decided on your conclusion, that eating potatoes solely is a good thing, and then went out looking for data to support that. This is the very definition of confirmation bias. In your quest to justify that abomination of an all potato diet, you happened upon some Wikipedia comment regarding RS and retrogradation of starch in cold potatoes, and then made your comment about yet another reason to eat potatoes.

        I merely came along to point out how ridiculous that statement is. And it is ridiculous. My post that started this whole multi-page back and forth with you in this thread pointed out that the reason RS is in any sense "important for gut health" is solely due the fact that it is a carbohydrate that makes it through the digestive tract intact to the colon where it can be fermented. Other carbohydrates have this exact same property, and if you are really intent on colonic fermentation you can do much much better than some cold potatoes:

        Originally posted by The Effects of Inulin on Gut Health and Bifidobacterial Populations in the Colon
        Inulins are important constituents of dietary fiber that are present in a wide variety of foodstuffs of plant origin that act as prebiotics, which enhance gut colonization by beneficial bacteria, principally the bifidobacteria. Inulins consist of linear and branched polymers of repeating fructosyl units that range between 2 and 60 units in length. These polysaccharides are resistant to the host metabolism in the upper digestive tract, but are fermented by bacteria in the colon. Diets in the developed world that often comprise highly processed foods contain lower than desirable levels of inulin and dietary fiber generally. Inulins added to foods help maintain the mucosal barrier in the gut and are claimed to reduce the risk of cardiovascular disease and cancer and maintain gut health particularly in infants and the elderly. In recent years, inulins have been increasingly recognized as important in digestive health and are added to a variety of food products to take advantage of their prebiotic effects. This trend is likely to continue.
        This should sound awfully familiar to you, but I don't expect that it will cause you to back away from your "resistant starch is special" mantra. You have also presented zero evidence, providing only empty assertions, to support your claims that "we should seek out and eat" resistant starch. Here is one simple question for you: how much colonic fermentation is optimal for health? Any peer-reviewed evidence you can provide to support your claims would be greatly appreciated, although, truth be told, without the peer reviewed evidence your claims are for all intents and purposes worthless.

        You also have a very irritating tendency to construct straw man arguments, which essentially entails putting words in other people's mouths and then arguing with those words. Somewhere along the line you positioned yourself as the defender of a healthy gut biome. Well, bully for you, except that as far as I'm aware, nobody, and least of all me, is arguing against maintaining healthy gut microflora. Rather, I am arguing against your chosen weapon in this fight, resistant starch from potatoes.

        Lastly, although you may not appreciate this, on some level I actually look forward to the ad-hominem attacks, snide remarks about my "dissertations", and out of left-field non-sequiturs about "unicorns" because those are sure signs that you and others are having a tough time actually addressing the arguments in am making in a calm, deliberate, and logical fashion.

        -PK
        My blog : cogitoergoedo.com

        Interested in Intermittent Fasting? This might help: part 1, part 2, part 3.

        Comment


        • #94
          Originally posted by pklopp View Post
          The fundamental problem, OTZI, is that you decided on your conclusion, that eating potatoes solely is a good thing, and then went out looking for data to support that. This is the very definition of confirmation bias. In your quest to justify that abomination of an all potato diet, you happened upon some Wikipedia comment regarding RS and retrogradation of starch in cold potatoes, and then made your comment about yet another reason to eat potatoes.

          I merely came along to point out how ridiculous that statement is. And it is ridiculous. My post that started this whole multi-page back and forth with you in this thread pointed out that the reason RS is in any sense "important for gut health" is solely due the fact that it is a carbohydrate that makes it through the digestive tract intact to the colon where it can be fermented. Other carbohydrates have this exact same property, and if you are really intent on colonic fermentation you can do much much better than some cold potatoes:



          This should sound awfully familiar to you, but I don't expect that it will cause you to back away from your "resistant starch is special" mantra. You have also presented zero evidence, providing only empty assertions, to support your claims that "we should seek out and eat" resistant starch. Here is one simple question for you: how much colonic fermentation is optimal for health? Any peer-reviewed evidence you can provide to support your claims would be greatly appreciated, although, truth be told, without the peer reviewed evidence your claims are for all intents and purposes worthless.

          You also have a very irritating tendency to construct straw man arguments, which essentially entails putting words in other people's mouths and then arguing with those words. Somewhere along the line you positioned yourself as the defender of a healthy gut biome. Well, bully for you, except that as far as I'm aware, nobody, and least of all me, is arguing against maintaining healthy gut microflora. Rather, I am arguing against your chosen weapon in this fight, resistant starch from potatoes.

          Lastly, although you may not appreciate this, on some level I actually look forward to the ad-hominem attacks, snide remarks about my "dissertations", and out of left-field non-sequiturs about "unicorns" because those are sure signs that you and others are having a tough time actually addressing the arguments in am making in a calm, deliberate, and logical fashion.

          -PK
          *applause*
          Ancestral Nutrition Coaching
          Pregnancy Nutrition Coaching
          Primal Pregnancy Nutrition Article

          Comment


          • #95
            More applause
            Starting Weight: 197.5
            Current Weight: 123
            Far healthier!

            Comment


            • #96
              Inulins are important constituents of dietary fiber that are present in a wide variety of foodstuffs of plant origin that act as prebiotics, which enhance gut colonization by beneficial bacteria, principally the bifidobacteria. Inulins consist of linear and branched polymers of repeating fructosyl units that range between 2 and 60 units in length. These polysaccharides are resistant to the host metabolism in the upper digestive tract, but are fermented by bacteria in the colon. Diets in the developed world that often comprise highly processed foods contain lower than desirable levels of inulin and dietary fiber generally. Inulins added to foods help maintain the mucosal barrier in the gut and are claimed to reduce the risk of cardiovascular disease and cancer and maintain gut health particularly in infants and the elderly. In recent years, inulins have been increasingly recognized as important in digestive health and are added to a variety of food products to take advantage of their prebiotic effects. This trend is likely to continue.
              So, be sure to eat these:

              Plants that contain high concentrations of inulin include:

              Agave (Agave spp.)
              Banana
              Burdock (Arctium lappa)
              Camas (Camassia spp.)
              Chicory (Cichorium intybus)
              Coneflower (Echinacea spp.)
              Costus Saussurea lappa
              Dandelion (Taraxacum officinale)
              Elecampane (Inula helenium)
              Garlic (Allium sativum)
              Jerusalem artichoke (Helianthus tuberosus)
              Jicama (Pachyrhizus erosus)
              Leopard's-bane (Arnica montana)
              Mugwort (Artemisia vulgaris)
              Onion (Allium cepa)
              Wild yam (Dioscorea spp.)
              Yacón (Smallanthus sonchifolius spp.)
              from: Inulin - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

              But eat them with caution because: About 30–40% of people in Central Europe suffer from fructose malabsorption.[15] Since inulin is a fructan, excess dietary intake may lead to minor side effects, such as increased flatulence and loose stools in those with fructose malabsorption.[16] It is recommended that fructan intake for people with fructose malabsorption be kept to less than 0.5 grams/serving.[16

              As for me, I'll take taters!
              Last edited by otzi; 01-22-2013, 07:48 PM.

              Comment


              • #97
                Originally posted by otzi View Post
                So, be sure to eat these:

                But eat them with caution because: About 30–40% of people in Central Europe suffer from fructose malabsorption.[15] Since inulin is a fructan, excess dietary intake may lead to minor side effects, such as increased flatulence and loose stools in those with fructose malabsorption.[16] It is recommended that fructan intake for people with fructose malabsorption be kept to less than 0.5 grams/serving.[16]
                Point ... missed ... by a country mile.

                The danger in using Wikipedia as the source for the majority of your knowledge is that it is easy to follow your tracks ( I've highlighted the bits that are relevant, but you conveniently omitted ):

                Originally posted by The Fount of Otzi's Knowldege (Wikipedia)
                Inulin is indigestible by the human enzymes ptyalin and amylase, which are adapted to digest starch. As a result, inulin passes through much of the digestive system intact. It is only in the colon that bacteria metabolise inulin, with the release of significant quantities of carbon dioxide, hydrogen, and/or methane. Inulin-containing foods can be rather gassy, in particular, for those unaccustomed to inulin, and these foods should be consumed in moderation at first.

                Inulin is a soluble fiber, one of three types of dietary fiber including soluble, insoluble, and resistant starch. Soluble fiber dissolves in water to form a gelatinous material. Some soluble fibers may help lower blood cholesterol and glucose levels.

                Because normal digestion does not break inulin down into monosaccharides, it does not elevate blood sugar levels and may, therefore, be helpful in the management of diabetes. Inulin also stimulates the growth of bacteria in the gut.[10] Inulin passes through the stomach and duodenum undigested and is highly available to the gut bacterial flora. This makes it similar to resistant starches and other fermentable carbohydrates. This contrasts with proprietary probiotic formulations based on lactic acid bacteria (LAB) in which the bacteria have to survive very challenging conditions through the gastrointestinal tract before they are able to colonize the gut.

                Some traditional diets contain over 20 g per day of inulin or fructooligosaccharides. The diet of the prehistoric hunter-forager in the Chihuahuan Desert has been estimated to include 135 g per day of inulin-type fructans.[11] Many foods naturally high in inulin or fructooligosaccharides, such as chicory, garlic, and leek, have been seen as "stimulants of good health" for centuries.[12]

                Inulin is also used in medical tests to measure the total amount of extracellular volume and determine the function of the kidneys.[citation needed]

                Inulin is generally recognized as safe (GRAS) by the U.S. Food and Drug Administration (FDA).[13]

                There is a single report of what is claimed to be an allergic reaction to inulin in the literature,[14] but dietary inulin is accompanied by small amounts of bacteria and fungal spores and so this case could represent a reaction to one of these contaminants.[citation needed]

                About 30–40% of people in Central Europe suffer from fructose malabsorption.[15] Since inulin is a fructan, excess dietary intake may lead to minor side effects, such as increased flatulence and loose stools in those with fructose malabsorption.[16] It is recommended that fructan intake for people with fructose malabsorption be kept to less than 0.5 grams/serving.[16]
                If you think about it, that last paragraph that you latched on to is a non-sequitur and actually should probably be removed from that article. It is irrelevant if you suffer from fructose malabsorption, because as the article itself says, "normal digestion does not break down inulin into monosaccharides", that is, fructose. The breakdown to fructose occurs in the colon as a substrate for fermentation ... something that you seem to like when it happens to glucose.

                Throughout the excerpt from Wikipedia that I more fully included above, you can see the many parallels that are being drawn between inulin and resistant starches. My favourite bit, though, would have to be "This makes [Inulin] similar to resistant starches and other fermentable carbohydrates." I can see why it is important for your argument to redact that bit ... can't have folks thinking that there is no magic in a cold potato.

                As for the horrors of regularly eating chicory, onions, leeks, garlic, and bananas as opposed to cold potatoes ... you have to be kidding, right?

                -PK

                P.S. I asked you one simple question, Otzi. I'm still waiting for your answer.
                My blog : cogitoergoedo.com

                Interested in Intermittent Fasting? This might help: part 1, part 2, part 3.

                Comment


                • #98
                  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PKLOPP
                  Strange British man who is very jealous of the success of on-line superstar, Otzi's, famed "Potato Diet". PKLOPP gained some poor reviews from his failed attempt at an all-potato diet that included tuna and eggs. He was summarily drummed out of the blogosphere and spends his days looking to discredit Otzi. See also: Poor Sod, Sad Man, and King Straw Man

                  Comment


                  • #99
                    Originally posted by pklopp View Post
                    Here is one simple question for you: how much colonic fermentation is optimal for health? Any peer-reviewed evidence you can provide to support your claims would be greatly appreciated, although, truth be told, without the peer reviewed evidence your claims are for all intents and purposes worthless.

                    Lastly, although you may not appreciate this, on some level I actually look forward to the ad-hominem attacks, snide remarks about my "dissertations", and out of left-field non-sequiturs about "unicorns" because those are sure signs that you and others are having a tough time actually addressing the arguments in am making in a calm, deliberate, and logical fashion.
                    Originally posted by pklopp View Post
                    Point ... missed ... by a country mile.
                    P.S. I asked you one simple question, Otzi. I'm still waiting for your answer.
                    Otzi, you are embarrassing yourself.

                    Comment


                    • Heh.

                      Onions and garlic are always on my menu! Sometimes leeks.
                      And even though I'm HFLC, I gotta have my plantains on occasion as treats.

                      Cold potatoes.
                      Uh... No.
                      Bleh.

                      Raw.
                      Hell no.
                      That is not food man... serious.
                      My dog won't even eat that if it falls on the floor.
                      “You have your way. I have my way. As for the right way, the correct way, and the only way, it does not exist.”
                      ~Friedrich Nietzsche
                      And that's why I'm here eating HFLC Primal/Paleo.

                      Comment


                      • Cold sweet potatoes are fucking bomb, for the record.

                        Comment


                        • I will agree with Tim on that. Cold sweet potatoes are a nice little treat.
                          My Journal http://www.marksdailyapple.com/forum/thread74692.html

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by cori93437 View Post
                            Heh.

                            Onions and garlic are always on my menu! Sometimes leeks.
                            And even though I'm HFLC, I gotta have my plantains on occasion as treats.

                            Cold potatoes.
                            Uh... No.
                            Bleh.

                            Raw.
                            Hell no.
                            That is not food man... serious.
                            My dog won't even eat that if it falls on the floor.
                            Smart dog.

                            Comment


                            • Hi Otzi,

                              It's your friendly neighbourhood blogosphere exile here. I know that you are probably busy with your legions of adoring internet fans ... being an internet superstar is never easy, I'm told, so this may have slipped through the cracks for you.

                              I just wanted to remind you that it has now been two days since I asked you for a single, solitary, little, measly peer reviewed article on "how much colonic fermentation is optimal for health" on January 22nd.

                              Surely you wouldn't be advocating for everyone to increase their intake of resistant starch without knowing first what the average intake is, and, more importantly, how that deviates from the optimum.

                              I'm looking forward to your reply.

                              Thanks again,

                              -PK
                              Last edited by pklopp; 01-24-2013, 12:49 PM.
                              My blog : cogitoergoedo.com

                              Interested in Intermittent Fasting? This might help: part 1, part 2, part 3.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by pklopp View Post
                                "how much colonic fermentation is optimal for health" ... what the average intake is, and, more importantly, how that deviates from the optimum.
                                Don't know why I even bother, but this study: Health properties of resistant starch - Nugent - 2005 - Nutrition Bulletin - Wiley Online Library

                                Gives an upper limit of 30g:
                                Resistant starch appears to have no adverse impact on gastrointestinal function in well-nourished people and may even promote health in children with diarrhoeal disease (Topping & Clifton 2001). In addition, it appears to be more readily acceptable than other forms of dietary fibre (e.g. wheat bran) at high levels in the human diet (Ferguson et al. 2003). It has been reported that it is not feasible for humans to consume more than 30 g/day of RS due to problems with flatulence, belching, bloating, mild laxative effects and stomach aches (Heijnen et al. 1996); however, it is unlikely that humans would consume such high levels of RS without aggressive supplementation and in some instances RS was supplemented in association with other forms of dietary fibre. No cases of allergic reactions have been reported following supplementation with more traditional forms of RS, such as those made from high amylose maize (Goldring 2004). At present, other new sources of starch being used which are based on other types of starch including tapioca, potato and wheat. At present, there is little information regarding their effects, or those of RS4, in humans; more comprehensive information and studies are needed in vivo.
                                Average and optimal discussed here:

                                Several studies have attempted to quantify population dietary intakes of RS. However, a number of different methods of analyses of RS were used in these studies and this makes any real comparisons between countries and/or studies difficult. From population studies, it has been calculated that intakes of non-starch polysaccharides are approximately < 20 g/day (Baghurst et al. 1996). The last national survey of dietary intakes in the UK revealed that intakes of non-starch polysaccharides were approximately 12 g/day for women and 15 g/day for men (Henderson et al. 2003). However, it is believed that approximately 60–80 g of substrate is needed per day to sustain the 1013−1014 organisms found in the human large bowel. It is thought that RS contributes to this ‘carbohydrate gap’ (Topping et al. 2003). RS has been reported to constitute up to 15% of the dry matter of a food product (Champ et al. 2003b).

                                Worldwide, dietary intakes of RS are believed to vary considerably. It is estimated that intakes of RS in developing countries with high starch consumption rates range from approximately 30 to 40 g/day (Baghurst et al. 2001). Dietary intakes in India and China were recently estimated at 10 and 18 g/day (Platel & Shurpalekar 1994; Muir et al. 1998). Intakes in the EU are thought to lie between 3 and 6 g/day (Dyssler & Hoffmann, 1994). Dietary intakes of RS in the UK are estimated at 2.76 g/day (Tomlin & Read 1990) and are believed to range from 5 to 7 g/day in Australia (Baghurst et al. 2001). In the study of Baghurst et al. (2001) the authors analysed population dietary intakes of RS using Australian National Dietary Survey data for the years 1988 and 1993 and a foods database which they constructed using analytical data from published findings and data presented at a scientific (EURESTA) meeting. The main sources of RS for this cohort were cereals (42%), vegetables (26%) and fruit and fruit juice (22%). There was little evidence of any age- or occupation-related trends in the density of RS in the diet. However, this data must be viewed with caution as it represents only a small amount of data, a number of techniques were used to ascertain the amount of RS in foods, the authors reported inconsistencies in the database and the data refers to Australian dietary intakes. As mentioned earlier, intakes of RS in Australia are likely to be greater than in Europe due to the commercial availability of top-selling breads and cakes that are enriched with RS.

                                Importance of RS from starch as opposed to inulins, etc...:
                                RS appears to function as a prebiotic and symbiotic (Brown et al. 1997; Wang et al. 1999). Studies in humans and pigs have revealed that consumption of high-RS diets result in a time-dependent shift in faecal and large-bowel SCFA profiles, suggesting a change in the autochthonous (local) microbial population and that RS could interact with gut bacteria (Topping et al. 2003). It is also worth noting that RS appears to function differently than more well known prebiotics (e.g. fructo-oligosaccharides); when the RS and fructo-oligosaccharides were fed together, the increase in faecal bacteria was greater than the individual increases observed when these two ingredients were fed separately (Brown et al. 1998).
                                So, I stand by my conclusion that a couple potatoes a day would be extremely healthy. The starchy substrate, recommended at 60-80g above, is there as well as a dose of RS a bit higher than a standard western diet. To give further impact, about half of the potatoes should be eaten cooked and cooled and a few pieces eaten raw.

                                I'm 100% positive this will not satisfy you and look forward to seeing your rebuttal.

                                Comment

                                Working...
                                X