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  • LDL Particle Size

    Hi All,
    Did a search an did not see any results for this. Have recently had a physical, and the total cholesterol number is fine, the ldl particle number is way to high, meaning I have lots of small dense ldl particles. Dr. says to try diet for 3-4 months to improve, and then statins if no success. I know I don't want to go on statins. Has anyone had success with diet reducing the small ldl particles?

    Thanks in advance!

  • #2
    Orthodoc, are you sure that you have the correct LDL breakdown? You mentioned the particle number, but is it type A (which, I believe, is the large, fluffy type) or type B (small and dense)? How is your HDL?

    I've read that particle size can be determined by your triglycerides - anything lower than 60 tends to lean toward the fluffy LDL particles, and higher than 150 tends to lean toward the small, dense LDL particles. An excellent way to lower your triglycerides is to stop eating refined/processed carbohydrates -- which is a cornerstone of the primal/paleo lifestyle.
    F, 44 years old, 111.8 lbs, 4 feet 11.5 inches (yes, that half inch matters!)

    **1st place sparring, AAU TKD regional qualifier, 2/15/15 - It's damn good to hit like a girl!**

    **First-ever 5K race 11/28/13: 37 minutes, 18+ seconds, no stopping**

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    • #3
      Originally posted by JackieKessler View Post
      Orthodoc, are you sure that you have the correct LDL breakdown? You mentioned the particle number, but is it type A (which, I believe, is the large, fluffy type) or type B (small and dense)? How is your HDL?

      I've read that particle size can be determined by your triglycerides - anything lower than 60 tends to lean toward the fluffy LDL particles, and higher than 150 tends to lean toward the small, dense LDL particles. An excellent way to lower your triglycerides is to stop eating refined/processed carbohydrates -- which is a cornerstone of the primal/paleo lifestyle.
      Triglycerides are 63, HDL was 51. The test was the NMR test by Liposcience, and they are the type B small particles that are too high- 1786.

      Since I posted this, I found a book called "The Great Cholesterol Myth" which seems to be covering the subject in great detail.

      Comment


      • #4
        Orthodoc-
        As I understand it the main function of the NMR Lipoprofile is to measure LDL-P, which is the number of LDL Particles, not their size. There are some leading edge cardiologists (Thomas Dayspring and Tara Dall, for example) who think LDL-P is a more accurate measure of future CAD events than all other tests. You can hear a great lecture by Tara Dall on this subject on LecturePad (free). When I had the NMR done it also included LDL-C, HDL-C, trigs, TC HDL-P, small LDL-P, LDL size and a LP-IR score. This is distinct from a VAP which will provide you with the large fluffy vs small sticky A/B LDL types. According to Dall and Dayspring that is irrelevant and only the # of LDL particles is significant. Dall has had great success using Metformin to reduce particle count in her patients. In fact, I'm testing it out myself.
        Starting Weight: 197.5
        Current Weight: 123
        Far healthier!

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        • #5
          It would be helpful to know a few things: What does your diet look like now, and how long have you been doing that? Are you currently in the process of loosing (fat) weight? Also, do you have any past tests to compare these numbers to?

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          • #6
            Originally posted by janie View Post
            Orthodoc-
            Dall has had great success using Metformin to reduce particle count in her patients. In fact, I'm testing it out myself.
            Particle count does correlate with heart health. This in no way means that a drug that reduces particle count will benefit a person. Having a low count for genetic and/or dietary reasons and having a low count that was induced by exogenous biochemical agents are completely different things. I think you are playing with (very slow burning) fire here.

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            • #7
              As I said, according to the cardiologists I mentioned, a high LDL-P is most predictive of CAD. Thus they recommend lowering LDL-P, and Metformin is a medication that they have had great success with and they find it is much more effective (and way less dangerous)than statins. In fact, Metformin has no significant negative history, is taken daily by many diabetics, and is now also being considered as a possible cancer treatment. My doctor -- and leading cardiologists -- find it much less dangerous than a high LDL-P. What information do you have that they don't that would have you think I'm playing with fire?
              Starting Weight: 197.5
              Current Weight: 123
              Far healthier!

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by janie View Post
                As I said, according to the cardiologists I mentioned, a high LDL-P is most predictive of CAD. Thus they recommend lowering LDL-P, and Metformin is a medication that they have had great success with and they find it is much more effective (and way less dangerous)than statins. In fact, Metformin has no significant negative history, is taken daily by many diabetics, and is now also being considered as a possible cancer treatment. My doctor -- and leading cardiologists -- find it much less dangerous than a high LDL-P. What information do you have that they don't that would have you think I'm playing with fire?
                I believe Chris Masterjohn understands cholesterol and atherosclerosis better than anyone on the planet. Here is an excellent video. Mercola is a lightweight and has trouble formulating his questions but it doesn't detract from Masterjohn's expertise. LDL-P may be a decent marker; but, as The Scientist already said and Masterjohn explains, reducing LDL-P does not necessarily reduce risk. Also, it isn't at all clear that LDL particle size and count are additive to the standard risk cholesterol ratios which have been used for many years. I have listened to and read rather extensively Dall, Dayspring, Masterjohn, Attia and others. None inspire confidence in me as well as Masterjohn.


                YouTube
                Last edited by Artbuc; 01-01-2013, 04:37 PM.

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                • #9
                  Thanks for the Masterjohn link.

                  My doc has made the Metformin recommendation to me based on Dayspring and Dall's success in treating patients who are high CAD risk. In my case there is a strong family history. I've been eating primal for some time, lost 70 pounds, maintained a normal weight for 3 years, have trigs of 35, HDL-C of 73....and yet my LDP-C and LDL-P have continued to rise and rise. An ox-LDL was very high, even though my diet is very low in PUFA/omega6. We are trying the Metformin for 3 months and then repeating the NMR as neither my doc or I are want statins. I'll check out the Masterjohn link to see why I'm "playing with fire" but it is hard for me to believe that there isn't some risk to such high LDL#s..
                  Starting Weight: 197.5
                  Current Weight: 123
                  Far healthier!

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    All due respect but I didn't read anything to convince me that high LDL-P and LDL-C are benign. While I'm familiar w/Masterjohn through WPF, I also feel that while theory is great, as a PhD he does not successfully treat patients w/CAD or off the chart values as Dall & Dayspring do. And I could find nothing that questions the wisdom of the Metformin experiment.
                    Starting Weight: 197.5
                    Current Weight: 123
                    Far healthier!

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by janie View Post
                      All due respect but I didn't read anything to convince me that high LDL-P and LDL-C are benign. While I'm familiar w/Masterjohn through WPF, I also feel that while theory is great, as a PhD he does not successfully treat patients w/CAD or off the chart values as Dall & Dayspring do. And I could find nothing that questions the wisdom of the Metformin experiment.
                      Good-luck and please keep us posted on your progress.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by janie View Post
                        Orthodoc-
                        As I understand it the main function of the NMR Lipoprofile is to measure LDL-P, which is the number of LDL Particles, not their size. There are some leading edge cardiologists (Thomas Dayspring and Tara Dall, for example) who think LDL-P is a more accurate measure of future CAD events than all other tests. You can hear a great lecture by Tara Dall on this subject on LecturePad (free). When I had the NMR done it also included LDL-C, HDL-C, trigs, TC HDL-P, small LDL-P, LDL size and a LP-IR score. This is distinct from a VAP which will provide you with the large fluffy vs small sticky A/B LDL types. According to Dall and Dayspring that is irrelevant and only the # of LDL particles is significant. Dall has had great success using Metformin to reduce particle count in her patients. In fact, I'm testing it out myself.

                        Yes, you are correct. I had the same #'s you mentioned from LipoScience NMR test. The LDL-P is the total number, and mine is too high (1700). What is Metformin? I am reading "The Great Cholesterol Myth" and I believe they mention Niacin as an option to help reduce the numbers.

                        As a side note, I am 5"11, 167 and bodyfat is roughly 16-17%.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Lots of good advice in this thread. I agree with pretty much everything that Artbuc has posted.

                          Other things you can try doing are:

                          1. Reduce carbohydrate intake - This will lower your trigs, which will decrease the amount of 'bad' LDL you have in your system. Note: Going <50g might impair Thyroid function (see 3 below)

                          2. Increase your fat intake - This will increase both HDL and LDL, but the RATIO of the two should improve. Note: This is advice your doctor will probably strongly disagree with, since it will result in an LDL increase. Feel free to disregard if you want to avoid that potential confrontation.

                          3. Take Iodine and Selenium (or even a T3 supplement) - This will improve your Thyroid function, and it's thyroid hormone that stimulates the LDL receptors that remove the 'bad' LDL from your system.

                          Here's a good page from the Perfect Health Diet.
                          Last edited by magicmerl; 01-02-2013, 07:58 PM.
                          Disclaimer: I eat 'meat and vegetables' ala Primal, although I don't agree with the carb curve. I like Perfect Health Diet and WAPF Lactofermentation a lot.

                          Griff's cholesterol primer
                          5,000 Cal Fat <> 5,000 Cal Carbs
                          Winterbike: What I eat every day is what other people eat to treat themselves.
                          TQP: I find for me that nutrition is much more important than what I do in the gym.
                          bloodorchid is always right

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by janie View Post
                            As I said, according to the cardiologists I mentioned, a high LDL-P is most predictive of CAD. Thus they recommend lowering LDL-P, and Metformin is a medication that they have had great success with and they find it is much more effective (and way less dangerous)than statins. In fact, Metformin has no significant negative history, is taken daily by many diabetics, and is now also being considered as a possible cancer treatment. My doctor -- and leading cardiologists -- find it much less dangerous than a high LDL-P. What information do you have that they don't that would have you think I'm playing with fire?
                            My hubby turned into a mindless zombie on a 1/2 dose of Metformin. Obviously it has brain effects on some people; so he quit it. However, lp(a) is the most dangerous particle for forming plaques and blockages, and it is a fraction of LDL that can be measured, but needs to be requested.
                            However, LDL is necessary in the body. Newest research is lifting the tired old "bad cholesterol" image that it has acquired. Check it out.
                            Last edited by Paysan; 01-03-2013, 08:22 PM.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              If your reading the great cholesterol myth you will notice:

                              1. Trigs and trigs to HDL ratio is the best way to determine CD. Your ratio seems great.

                              2. LDL B particles are what you need to see. Those are the bad ones, however; they are ONLY BAD if they under the right circumstances, eg: inflammation ect..

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