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  • Originally posted by Neckhammer View Post
    I think its very posible for some of them to become less healthy even though they lose weight.
    Maybe, but why do you think so? The obese Scotsman as referenced by Mark Sisson seem to have done well?

    Originally posted by Neckhammer View Post
    Like I said before this experiments would hold more interest to me if we varied the kind of calorie or the nutritive load. You said does a multivitamin have calories before....well do energy drinks contain B vitamins....and to what purpose? Get it?
    No! Vitamins to my knowledge does not have energy or calories, but maybe you know something that I don't? The energy from a energy-drink comes from the sugars and the B-vitamins function as a catalyst only, so I don’t get your point at all!

    Originally posted by Neckhammer View Post
    You also say "as much tea, water, or coffee as they want".....again this is another variable that will dictate a different response in each person based on 1.) how much they consume (since you leave it up to them) 2.) their metabolic and adrenal health and response to whatever amounts they decide to consume.
    OK, the biggest coffee and green tea drinkers may possible lose a few pounds more weight throughout the year, so for the sake of the experiment we may use descaffinated coffe and tea instead, just to make everything the same.

    Originally posted by Neckhammer View Post
    Even in your thought experiment where you have concentration camp type control there are variables that will change the outcomes on an individual basis.
    Yes, there will be som individual differences as I also wrote to otzi, but I don't think those will overshadow that every participant will lose huge amounts of weight. That's what I believe anyway.

    And, I never used the word "concentration camp" in my OP! I said let’s put armed guards to prevent food to be smuggled in. It was only meant to illustrate a controlled environment, but if this is still an thorn in the eye of everybody, let’s put the thought-experiment to a beautiful paradise island instead, with all the facilities, and medical staff necessary. The main point is only that only the prescribed diet will be an issue in the experiment and no other “secret” food! No caretaker or other staff creating a black-marked kitchen inside the camp etc…
    "All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident."

    - Schopenhauer

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    • Gorbag I tend to be very sensitive to bigotry, injustice etc. I have been overweight my entire life and in high school was fat w/ glasses. It scars a girl . I find any type of discrimination henious and will fight to the death to correct it. I say all this to say that all I got out of your OP was a what if....What if we did this? How would this work? How does food, energy etc really effect our bodies? I really don't think you meant it as hate against the morbidly obese. For what its worth there is my two cents
      You know all those things you wanted to do: You should go do them.

      Age 48
      height 5'3
      SW 215 lbs
      CW 180 lbs (whole foods/primal eating)
      LW 172 lbs
      GW 125ish lbs

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      • Thank you, valmason01, I appreciate it!
        "All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident."

        - Schopenhauer

        Comment


        • Considering this purely as a thought experiment ...

          A concern for the participants would be severe suppression of basal metabolic rate through a chronic low-calorie diet, and significant loss of muscle mass.

          After all, low-calorie dieting (with yoyo weight regain) is a major contributor to the obesity epidemic. What kind of follow-up support would be available to prevent or minimise weight regain?

          I am sure that better outcomes on average would be achieved via calorie-cycling (ensuring an energy surplus at least 2 days a week) plus obligatory physical activities, as the muscles are a key endocrine organ in regulating blood sugar levels, BMR and the immune system.

          The approach in the thought experiment is too reductionist and short-termist IMO.
          F 5 ft 3. HW: 196 lbs. Primal SW (May 2011): 182 lbs (42% BF)... W June '12: 160 lbs (29% BF) (UK size 12, US size 8). GW: ~24% BF - have ditched the scales til I fit into a pair of UK size 10 bootcut jeans. Currently aligning towards 'The Perfect Health Diet' having swapped some fat for potatoes.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by paleo-bunny View Post
            Considering this purely as a thought experiment ...

            A concern for the participants would be severe suppression of basal metabolic rate through a chronic low-calorie diet, and significant loss of muscle mass.

            After all, low-calorie dieting (with yoyo weight regain) is a major contributor to the obesity epidemic. What kind of follow-up support would be available to prevent or minimise weight regain?

            I am sure that better outcomes on average would be achieved via calorie-cycling (ensuring an energy surplus at least 2 days a week) plus obligatory physical activities, as the muscles are a key endocrine organ in regulating blood sugar levels, BMR and the immune system.

            The approach in the thought experiment is too reductionist and short-termist IMO.
            Hmm you might be on to something. I was thinking that for quite some time now I've considered my own recent experience with weight loss a big experiment. It's kind of interesting how my body reacts to the different things I've tried.

            I have adapted my plan to include one day per week when I probably eat double or more cals and probably triple the carbs I do the rest of the week. Without fail, every week I skip this high cal/high carb day my weight loss is very small or nil. I don't know if it's carb cycling, I don't know a thing about the scientific processes behind it, I don't know if it's purely psychological or psychosomatic but it does seem to produce results.

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            • I'm not sure if anyone has posted this link yet but there actually has been a total starvation diet done by doctors:

              JAMA Network | JAMA: The Journal of the American Medical Association | Prolonged Starvation as Treatment for Severe Obesity

              Comment


              • Originally posted by sunsis View Post
                I'm not sure if anyone has posted this link yet but there actually has been a total starvation diet done by doctors:

                JAMA Network | JAMA: The Journal of the American Medical Association | Prolonged Starvation as Treatment for Severe Obesity
                Interesting. I am not on a total starvation diet obviously but I did develop severe gout since I've been losing weight (I am nursing a flare today-here trying to distract myself from the misery). I wonder what the results would have been if the participants kept it up for a lot longer than 117 days.

                Comment


                • Originally posted by MuuMuu View Post
                  Hmm you might be on to something. I was thinking that for quite some time now I've considered my own recent experience with weight loss a big experiment. It's kind of interesting how my body reacts to the different things I've tried.

                  I have adapted my plan to include one day per week when I probably eat double or more cals and probably triple the carbs I do the rest of the week. Without fail, every week I skip this high cal/high carb day my weight loss is very small or nil. I don't know if it's carb cycling, I don't know a thing about the scientific processes behind it, I don't know if it's purely psychological or psychosomatic but it does seem to produce results.
                  Excellent. It's best to cycle calories and carbs as you are doing. As you get closer to your goal weight, you might find you benefit from eating in surplus more than one day a week.

                  The scientific processes behind this are control theory and homestasis. As you get closer to your goal weight your body will put up more resistance to losing fat so you have to work harder to fool it that it is not in a net calorific deficit week on week, or month on month, and to prevent suppression of BMR. This is where exercise can be very effective, as the body can measure calories in far more accurately than calories out. So you can use exercise to create a deficit just a few days a week and a small surplus the other days while eating the same amount of food every day, fooling your body that it is in homeostasis, and resulting in a small net calorific deficit overall.

                  Congratulations on your awesome weightloss, and kudos for experimenting to gain better understanding.
                  F 5 ft 3. HW: 196 lbs. Primal SW (May 2011): 182 lbs (42% BF)... W June '12: 160 lbs (29% BF) (UK size 12, US size 8). GW: ~24% BF - have ditched the scales til I fit into a pair of UK size 10 bootcut jeans. Currently aligning towards 'The Perfect Health Diet' having swapped some fat for potatoes.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by paleo-bunny View Post

                    Congratulations on your awesome weightloss, and kudos for experimenting to gain better understanding.
                    Thanks, I'm planning to just keep tweaking things as I go to continue to reduce. I know the weight loss will get slower and harder the smaller I get. The calorie cycling thing makes sense to me and I can't dispute the results. I've been walking an hour most days, about two hours on my days off work (and I move continuously and rarely sit at work).

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by paleo-bunny View Post
                      Considering this purely as a thought experiment ...

                      A concern for the participants would be severe suppression of basal metabolic rate through a chronic low-calorie diet, and significant loss of muscle mass.
                      Did you see the diet I proposed in the OP? Protein equivalent to 3 canned tuna in water, or whatever lean protein that gives around 100 – 120 gram of protein, more than most people get on a typical CW diet! Also, large amounts of stored bodyfat are protein sparing, so no need to fear excessive muscle loss when you have enough bodyfat to lose. The diet also prescribes EFA and fibrous vegetables ad libitum, multivitamins and a cube of broth per day, so this is not a strict starvation diet or waterfast, but a modified fast, with sufficient protein…

                      Originally posted by paleo-bunny View Post
                      After all, low-calorie dieting (with yoyo weight regain) is a major contributor to the obesity epidemic. What kind of follow-up support would be available to prevent or minimise weight regain?
                      That's OFF topic for the thread, we are only dealing with metabolic issues related to the one year experiment here, what happens whithin the experiment and the finishing result after one year...
                      "All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident."

                      - Schopenhauer

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by sunsis View Post
                        I'm not sure if anyone has posted this link yet but there actually has been a total starvation diet done by doctors:

                        JAMA Network | JAMA: The Journal of the American Medical Association | Prolonged Starvation as Treatment for Severe Obesity
                        Interesting! I think the diet that I propose will avoid some of the health issues they got on a pure starvation diet or waterfast. Also, see what I wrote to Paleo-bunny...
                        "All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident."

                        - Schopenhauer

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Gorbag View Post
                          Did you see the diet I proposed in the OP? Protein equivalent to 3 canned tuna in water, or whatever lean protein that gives around 100 – 120 gram of protein, more than most people get on a typical CW diet! Also, large amounts of stored bodyfat are protein sparing, so no need to fear excessive muscle loss when you have enough bodyfat to lose. The diet also prescribes EFA and fibrous vegetables ad libitum, multivitamins and a cube of broth per day, so this is not a strict starvation diet or waterfast, but a modified fast, with sufficient protein…
                          Yep, obviously on an ultra-low-carb ultra-low-cal diet most protein is squandered on gluconeogenesis. Hence muscle-wasting is inevitable.

                          That's OFF topic for the thread, we are only dealing with metabolic issues related to the one year experiment here, what happens whithin the experiment and the finishing result after one year...
                          Well you didn't state that. Ongoing health outcomes matter to anyone who isn't a facist.
                          F 5 ft 3. HW: 196 lbs. Primal SW (May 2011): 182 lbs (42% BF)... W June '12: 160 lbs (29% BF) (UK size 12, US size 8). GW: ~24% BF - have ditched the scales til I fit into a pair of UK size 10 bootcut jeans. Currently aligning towards 'The Perfect Health Diet' having swapped some fat for potatoes.

                          Comment


                          • I don't see the point of your "thought experiment". Weight is irrelevant without health. I also think your tone and phrasing make you sound like a douche.

                            With that said however...
                            Vitamins are important and relevant as they affect the ongoing chemical reactions, and metabolism is just a set of chemical reactions. Vitamins will affect how the body uses the protein, fat etc available to it.

                            Also, as you are finding with this thread, people do not stick to your rules. I would expect dominant individuals within the camp to take extra food, others to trade food for favours, etc etc. That would make your pointless results even more pointless.

                            If you are really curious I suggest swotting up on basic anatomy/physiology/biochemistry and doing some actual thinking with a bit of actual science.

                            Comment


                            • Also, as you are finding with this thread, people do not stick to your rules. I would expect dominant individuals within the camp to take extra food, others to trade food for favours, etc etc. That would make your pointless results even more pointless.
                              beautiful
                              yeah you are

                              Baby if you time travel back far enough you can avoid that work because the dust won't be there. You're too pretty to be working that hard.
                              lol

                              Comment


                              • I suggest looking up quelsen and reading some of his stuff. He made me rethink any assumptions I had about the morbidly obese. I wish he posted more. The stuff he knows is incredible.
                                Female, 5'3", 50, Max squat: 202.5lbs. Max deadlift: 225 x 3.

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