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  • #46
    Do none of you understand thought experiments?

    You're hung up on the armed guards, etc. But that is purely to illustrate a tightly controlled scenario. Just as Schrödinger's Cat is not a blueprint for a real experiment that results in the death of a cat, OP's thought experiment is not a proposal for actually detaining obese people in an asylum.

    C'mon now.

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    • #47
      And let's face it, while it is socially unacceptable to make race jokes, jokes about the disabled, and even some ethnic jokes, making fun of fat people is AOK by society's standard's. Everyone needs a scapegoat to feel better about themselves.
      "Right is right, even if no one is doing it; wrong is wrong, even if everyone is doing it." - St. Augustine

      B*tch-lite

      Who says back fat is a bad thing? Maybe on a hairy guy at the beach, but not on a crab.

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      • #48
        Originally posted by Damiana View Post
        You would scar them mentally for life. It's been done before, just not with fat people.

        Minnesota Starvation Experiment - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
        uhm... WOW... i have come to realize and accept that my parents ( mom specifically ) kept me in near starvation, but i never realized how much of my symptoms come from just that alone ignoring all the physical abuse
        Optimum Health powered by Actualized Self-Knowledge.

        Predator not Prey
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        CW 315 | SW 506
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        • #49
          I would accept it as a thought experiment, if next to the obesity camp, one erects the camp with the same security measures for all the underweight people out there, all those hard-gainers who daily struggle to gain weight and just keep losing, who will get force-fed until they reach the average weight for their average height, and they will continue to be force-fed to maintain it.

          This way, the entire population will attain the average weight and there will be no extremes.

          For convenience, everyone who has achieved the perfect weight for their height will be dressed in a brown wrap and tights of a standard issue. I would also recommend veils for both genders. They will be released, but must weigh in monthly. If the weight drops or climbs as much as 5 lbs, they should be readmitted into a hungry or feeding camps....

          Won't that make for a happy, healthy scenario?
          Last edited by Leida; 12-27-2012, 10:44 AM.
          My Journal: http://www.marksdailyapple.com/forum/thread57916.html
          When I let go of what I am, I become what I might be.

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          • #50
            Originally posted by Gorbag View Post
            Well, both you and bloodorchid and others are misunderstanding something here! This is a thought-experiment to see the practical consequence of doing what I outlined in my OP. This is what I am primarily interested in, less about the meta-ethical aspect whether it is morally right or not to carry out such an experiment. This is to discuss “AS IF”, - what would the practical results be by doing such a project?

            If you like, we could also assume that the candidates voluntarily consented to be isolated for one year in such a camp! So the question is; What would happen to the candidates throughout the year, and what would the final result be for the 100 persons that started out as morbidly obese when leaving the camp? I am not interested what would happen after they have left either, just the finishing result!

            And it is not meant as any disrespect for obese people whatsoever, just to make this clear once and for all...

            my n=1 wont work.

            here is why i assume that.

            truly fat people have something working against them. Having been the guy to follow you concept without armed gaurd using will alone i know i went from 300 to 506 with no real food intake. ask anyone who was close to me during that time and you will hear about an anguished bitter and angry human would routinely physically abused himself rather than eat just so his body would get the message that its behavior was inexcusable.

            Turns out the truly obese MUST eat thier way out of the problem not starve it... most of what they carry isnt food. the assumption is incorrect.

            cremate them; measure the chemicals released. I suspect you will find that most of the energy released isnt lipid based.
            Optimum Health powered by Actualized Self-Knowledge.

            Predator not Prey
            Paleo Ketogenic Lifestyle

            CW 315 | SW 506
            Current Jeans 46 | Starting Jeans 66


            Contact me: quelsen@gmail.com

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            • #51
              A thought experiment considers some hypothesis, theory, or principle for the purpose of thinking through its consequences. Given the structure of the experiment, it may or may not be possible to actually perform it, and, in the case that it is possible for it to be performed, there need be no intention of any kind to actually perform the experiment in question. The common goal of a thought experiment is to explore the potential consequences of the principle in question.

              Hypothesis: Obese individuals are actually able to survive without additional caloric intake for the amount of time required to reduce their excessive body fat to statistically acceptable levels (eg. a bmi of normal)

              Experiment: obtain 100 obese volunteers to enter a controlled study to measure rates of body fat reduced over time with no caloric intake

              Expected result: reduction over time meeting mathematically expected norms


              That is what he was trying to say ( i dare you to say i am wrong, you are in enough trouble as it is :-P )
              Optimum Health powered by Actualized Self-Knowledge.

              Predator not Prey
              Paleo Ketogenic Lifestyle

              CW 315 | SW 506
              Current Jeans 46 | Starting Jeans 66


              Contact me: quelsen@gmail.com

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              • #52
                Originally posted by quelsen View Post
                That is what he was trying to say ( i dare you to say i am wrong, you are in enough trouble as it is :-P )
                Ha,ha, Not bad quelsen, you and a few other exceptional bright posters seem to finally understand where I am heading!

                Interesting to read some of the other comments here… What I thought to discuss and learn something from, I have instead learned a lot about some of the participants on this cite, so that’s an interesting experiment by itself!

                Some posters that chases a giant straw-man in their misunderstood political correctness in a "defense" of the poor persecuted obese individual, kicking in vide open doors of this horrible discrimination project from Gorbag, that intends to put all the fat and obese persons into a concentration camp like the Nazis did, right?

                And what I intended to discuss was something similar to the Minnesota starvation experiment, only that we uses morbidly obese persons instead of relative lean soldiers and that we put them on a diet around the half of the calories compared to the volunteers of the Minnesota project, like in a modified fast! So I must be harassing and mocking the poor obese persons then??? Not my intention all, but I would be very interested in the outcome, how much weight lost, feeling of hunger throughout the year, change in hormonal issues throughout the year, issues of dehydration, psychological issues throughout the year, use of medication, illness and rate of mortality, just to mention a few things. And of course the final outcome for the participants.

                So why use obese people then? Because those probably more than anybody would be the best prepared due to a large amount of stored bodyfat to go on a large calorie deficit for a long period of time! An obese French man that I read about did a waterfast for one whole year, but that’s just one person, so the reason of 100 would be to try to guess an estimated outcome on various parameters. So, that’s some of the things I intended to discuss in this thread, but so far it turned out to be more an experiment about some of the posters themselves instead, which I find pretty amusing…
                "All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident."

                - Schopenhauer

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                • #53
                  Originally posted by ryanmercer View Post
                  Look at plane crashes in remote areas, they always turn to eating the injured ones. Generally in shipwreck situations too... and those are probably people that like food considerably less than someone morbidly obese.
                  This comment is possibly almost as reprehensible as Gorbag's initial "thought experiment" if not more so. Joking around about obese people being more likely to commit cannibalism is just so many levels of wrong.

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                  • #54
                    With 500-700 calories available guess what. It's going to come back to food quality. I got a better thought experiment. Feed 100 of them meat for that many calories and another 100 fruit and another 100 seed oil and grains. Now guess what you got at the end of the year in regards to lean mass, hormones, and other health markers. Lets just skip all the pseudoconcentration camp crap with guards though
                    Last edited by Neckhammer; 12-27-2012, 12:26 PM.

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                    • #55
                      Originally posted by Gorbag View Post
                      And what I intended to discuss was something similar to the Minnesota starvation experiment, only that we use morbidly obese persons and that we put them on a diet
                      Wow. You honestly don't realize what a jerk you sound like.
                      Last edited by Paleobird; 12-27-2012, 12:27 PM.

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                      • #56
                        Originally posted by Paleobird View Post
                        Wow. You honestly don't realize what a jerk you sound like.
                        What, have you started out on your primal red wine that early in the afternoon??? Look up on “thought-experiment” in Wikipedia or whatever...
                        "All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident."

                        - Schopenhauer

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                        • #57
                          Originally posted by quelsen View Post
                          cremate them; measure the chemicals released. I suspect you will find that most of the energy released isnt lipid based.
                          You thinking inflammation?

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                          • #58
                            Originally posted by Gorbag View Post
                            What, have you started out on your primal red wine that early in the afternoon??? Look up on “thought-experiment” in Wikipedia or whatever...
                            I don't drink and you trying to say that I do just makes you sound like an even bigger jerk.

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                            • #59
                              Even if that wasn't a horrifically morally reprehensible and fascistic thing to do, there are still technical problems with this thought experiment. Not the least of which being, what do you when the fatties get released and are free to eat and not-exercise themselves to death again? You're going to end up in perpetual Groundhog Day, unfattening the same group of people every damn year.

                              It's long, but I highly recommend you listen to this interview with Dr. Felitti of York University:


                              Long story short, what started out as a study on obesity ended up inadvertently turning into a study on child abuse, neglect, rape, and emotional/psychological trauma, as the researchers discovered it was IMPOSSIBLE for any of the subjects to maintain their weight loss for more than a couple months. Turns out many of them were subconsciously making themselves obese in order to be unattractive to sexual predators, among other things.

                              Anyone who's ever attended an AA meeting knows this principle. You cannot address an addiction without addressing the trauma that caused the addiction, otherwise the subject will either relapse, or turn to another addiction instead. At one point in the video, the Dr. mentions a women who's vaulted from obese -> thin -> obese again so many times that she's now dying from some degenerative condition. Pretty sad stuff.
                              Last edited by Chaohinon; 12-27-2012, 01:00 PM.
                              “The whole concept of a macronutrient, like that of a calorie, is determining our language game in such a way that the conversation is not making sense." - Dr. Kurt Harris

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                              • #60
                                Originally posted by Chaohinon View Post
                                Even if that wasn't a horrifically morally reprehensible and fascistic thing to do, there are still technical problems with this thought experiment. Not the least of which being, what do you when the fatties get released and are free to eat and not-exercise themselves to death again? You're going to end up in perpetual Groundhog Day, unfattening the same group of people every damn year.
                                I already wrote in the OP that there would be NO obligatory exercise and what happens AFTER the experiment is not a topic for the thread either, as I also have mentioned before...
                                "All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident."

                                - Schopenhauer

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