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  • #31
    Not at all. Any time someone suggests rounding people up and forcing them into camps, even "for their own good", the world's history of hatred, human rights violations, and even genocide becomes relevant.
    “If I didn't define myself for myself, I would be crunched into other people's fantasies for me and eaten alive.” --Audre Lorde

    Owly's Journal

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    • #32
      Originally posted by Gorbag View Post
      Completely irrelevant!
      Completely clueless.

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      • #33
        Originally posted by bloodorchid View Post
        now you're just trying to impress me

        it's working
        They done learned me good in school.
        “If I didn't define myself for myself, I would be crunched into other people's fantasies for me and eaten alive.” --Audre Lorde

        Owly's Journal

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        • #34
          Originally posted by Owly View Post
          Not at all. Any time someone suggests rounding people up and forcing them into camps, even "for their own good", the world's history of hatred, human rights violations, and even genocide becomes relevant.
          So you are not interesting in discussing the physiological and psychological outcome of a though-experiment without taking the ethical discussion first whether it is actually a right thing to do in real life? I have no plan to put obese persons into concentration camps at all, please read what I have said above…
          "All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident."

          - Schopenhauer

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          • #35
            Oh, so you want us to just *imagine* putting fat people into concentration camps.

            Well, that makes it totally acceptable and in no way offensive or harmful in any way, because just imagining persecuting people is totes okay.
            “If I didn't define myself for myself, I would be crunched into other people's fantasies for me and eaten alive.” --Audre Lorde

            Owly's Journal

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            • #36
              Originally posted by Owly View Post
              Oh, so you want us to just *imagine* putting fat people into concentration camps.

              Well, that makes it totally acceptable and in no way offensive or harmful in any way, because just imagining persecuting people is totes okay.
              And as I also said above, we could assume that the candidates consented voluntarily, or like in a reality show, because what you are arguing against is far beyond the point. But never mind, I must have stepped on a few sore toes here, so I am out - troll on - the thread is all yours...
              "All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident."

              - Schopenhauer

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              • #37
                Yawn. If you wanted to discuss what starvation does to morbidly obese individuals you could've skipped the concentration camp shtick. You didn't really need a "thought experiment" to explore physiological or psychological outcomes. You only need your "thought experiment" if you are leading to a "why not?" type question.

                Here's how thought experiment are used:

                Imagine you have a rail road track with a switch that can divert trains onto two sets of rails. The switch is positioned to have the train roll onto track A. You can pull a lever and an oncoming train will instead roll onto track B. On track A there is a car with 5 people in it, stuck, and you cannot get them out. On track B there is one person. A train is approaching the switch right now. If you do nothing, 5 people will die. If you throw the switch, only one person dies. What do you do? What?

                If you answer ”do nothing": You inhuman scum. Are you really going to let five people die? How could you possibly justify that. Are you a psychopath? Do you torture small animals too? What would you tell the families of those five people? You are sick.

                If you answer "flip the switch": today we are in exactly that situation with organ transplants. Five people will die, today, for lack of suitable transplant organs. We could save those five lives by identifying a suitable donor, killing them, and taking their organs to save those lives. You agree this killing would be justified because you said you would kill one to save five in the train track thought experiment. Killing one to save five is obviously the right thing to do. Work with us to change the laws to allow common medical need to triumph over obsolete concepts of individualism. Together we can make a difference.

                That's how you do thought experiments.
                Last edited by Him; 12-26-2012, 09:24 PM.

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                • #38
                  Originally posted by Gorbag View Post
                  And as I also said above, we could assume that the candidates consented voluntarily, or like in a reality show, because what you are arguing against is far beyond the point. But never mind, I must have stepped on a few sore toes here, so I am out - troll on - the thread is all yours...
                  Hey, gorbag. I don't think I have trolled anything in my life, but I really feel compelled to write a last thing...

                  I do get your thought experiment because I have had these kinds of wonderings myself in my younger decades, exactly with the morbidly obese, and back then really thought it could theoretically be done "for their own good".

                  Now I am a bit wiser, hopefully, and I see that these kinds of actions never, ever, ever end up well where they appear in the real world.

                  And if you dwell on this too long, you are forging new trails in your own head that will only lead you, and others, down destructive paths. It is like I tell my children - for it to happen in the real world, first you have to be able to imagine it. So I think that, in essence, I am advising you not to dwell on this much longer, even in private.

                  I have a special-needs daughter, and lots of folks would like to do lots of things "for their own good" in her world, and even though you said bupkis about the disabled-and-retarded, in some ways it is the same thing - you would deny their autonomy.

                  Yeah, folks do lots of stupid shit with their freedom and autonomy, but the underlying beauty and wisdom is simply that they have it, and it never is apparent how wise and beautiful autonomy and freedom are until somebody else gets it into their head to deny you yours - for your own good, you know... And it begins with someone thinking "what if..."
                  I have a mantra that I have spouted for years... "If I eat right, I feel right. If I feel right, I exercise right. If I exercise right, I think right. If I think right, I eat right..." Phil-SC

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                  • #39
                    I'm just wondering why you'd put a bunch of obese people on a really low calorie diet anyway? Why not just feed them a healthy primal diet with a reasonable number of calories and give them an opportunity for some healthy primal movement! (Not that I advocate rounding people up into a "camp"... but that being said, I think a lot of overweight people wouldn't mind being somewhere nice where all their food was provided and they were able to do some comfortable exercise ).

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                    • #40
                      Originally posted by Gorbag View Post
                      That's pretty serious, so we have to put some guards inside the camp as well, if that's the case! Do you really think it could go that far?
                      Someone out of the group would want more food bad enough. Not necessarily everyone but one person will minimum. Look at plane crashes in remote areas, they always turn to eating the injured ones. Generally in shipwreck situations too... and those are probably people that like food considerably less than someone morbidly obese.
                      -Ryan Mercer my blog and Genco Peptides my small biz

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                      • #41
                        Originally posted by Him View Post
                        Yawn. If you wanted to discuss what starvation does to morbidly obese individuals you could've skipped the concentration camp shtick. You didn't really need a "thought experiment" to explore physiological or psychological outcomes. You only need your "thought experiment" if you are leading to a "why not?" type question.

                        Here's how thought experiment are used:

                        Imagine you have a rail road track with a switch that can divert trains onto two sets of rails. The switch is positioned to have the train roll onto track A. You can pull a lever and an oncoming train will instead roll onto track B. On track A there is a car with 5 people in it, stuck, and you cannot get them out. On track B there is one person. A train is approaching the switch right now. If you do nothing, 5 people will die. If you throw the switch, only one person dies. What do you do? What?

                        If you answer ”do nothing": You inhuman scum. Are you really going to let five people die? How could you possibly justify that. Are you a psychopath? Do you torture small animals too? What would you tell the families of those five people? You are sick.

                        If you answer "flip the switch": today we are in exactly that situation with organ transplants. Five people will die, today, for lack of suitable transplant organs. We could save those five lives by identifying a suitable donor, killing them, and taking their organs to save those lives. You agree this killing would be justified because you said you would kill one to save five in the train track thought experiment. Killing one to save five is obviously the right thing to do. Work with us to change the laws to allow common medical need to triumph over obsolete concepts of individualism. Together we can make a difference.

                        That's how you do thought experiments.

                        Wow....now Gorbags doesn't seem so bad

                        I must not be using thought experiments at all.

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                        • #42
                          I thought it was done already and is widely popular. IIRC it is called the Biggest Looser.
                          My Journal: http://www.marksdailyapple.com/forum/thread57916.html
                          When I let go of what I am, I become what I might be.

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                          • #43
                            wouldn't this be like the concentration camps the nazi used. i don't think it worked out to well for them.

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                            • #44
                              Originally posted by phigment View Post
                              wouldn't this be like the concentration camps the nazi used. i don't think it worked out to well for them.
                              this.
                              Karin


                              Created by MyFitnessPal.com - Free Calorie Counter

                              What am I doing? Depends on the day.

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                              • #45
                                Wow, so you hate fat people so much that you could actually consider putting them in concentration camps and not even see what you are saying?
                                Female, 5'3", 50, Max squat: 202.5lbs. Max deadlift: 225 x 3.

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