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  • Originally posted by cori93437 View Post
    There is a literal ass load of PSMF research literature out there... Done on the overweight, obese, and even morbidly obese... read some maybe?)
    Any link to studies?

    Originally posted by cori93437 View Post
    This experiment has been done, minus the drama and the length. PSMF it seems is most certainly NOT healthy done long term and is generally used in cycles even when monitored by medical staff.
    Alright, why is waterfast for long periods of time more healthy then? I am not sure that obese persons have been put on a PSMF for a long period of time, and I cannot understand why it should be more unhealty than a waterfast.

    Originally posted by cori93437 View Post
    Also... Gorbag, your writing style with all of the exclamations and ending sentences in multiple question marks (in serious conversation!?) makes you seem if not in the throws of mania then at least on the verge of manic, and lends much less credence to your posts.
    Oh, thank you for advising me then, I thought that people got provoked by my signature and my avatar...
    "All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident."

    - Schopenhauer

    Comment


    • No one addressed my first post in this thread which features (granted, it's a lengthy interview) a real life equivalent of an obesity asylum. It completely failed, and forced the researchers to look at issues other than just nutrition & exercise.

      Obesity isn't ALL about diet and exercise, just like drug addiction isn't all about drugs how awesome it is to be high.

      Anecdotally, the vast majority of obese folks I've met are miserable and psychologically damaged people who are repressing trauma. My girlfriend's family is a great example; both sides have very dark, violent histories that no one (except the gf) is even remotely honest about. Consequently 90% of them are catastrophically fat and only continue to decline. Personally, I knew about the primal/paleo thing for 3 years before I stopped being a fat fuck. My improvement coincided directly with me moving away from home and telling my entire family to go fuck themselves with many sharp objects.

      Call me crazy, but it's pretty common knowledge that people use food, sexual promiscuity, and drugs to fill the void where love, happiness, and parental guidance are supposed to be.

      Bottom line: it's been done and it doesn't work.

      Originally posted by Chaohinon View Post
      Even if that wasn't a horrifically morally reprehensible and fascistic thing to do, there are still technical problems with this thought experiment. Not the least of which being, what do you when the fatties get released and are free to eat and not-exercise themselves to death again? You're going to end up in perpetual Groundhog Day, unfattening the same group of people every damn year.

      It's long, but I highly recommend you listen to this interview with Dr. Felitti of York University:


      Long story short, what started out as a study on obesity ended up inadvertently turning into a study on child abuse, neglect, rape, and emotional/psychological trauma, as the researchers discovered it was IMPOSSIBLE for any of the subjects to maintain their weight loss for more than a couple months. Turns out many of them were subconsciously making themselves obese in order to be unattractive to sexual predators, among other things.

      Anyone who's ever attended an AA meeting knows this principle. You cannot address an addiction without addressing the trauma that caused the addiction, otherwise the subject will either relapse, or turn to another addiction instead. At one point in the video, the Dr. mentions a women who's vaulted from obese -> thin -> obese again so many times that she's now dying from some degenerative condition. Pretty sad stuff.
      Last edited by Chaohinon; 12-30-2012, 01:27 PM.
      “The whole concept of a macronutrient, like that of a calorie, is determining our language game in such a way that the conversation is not making sense." - Dr. Kurt Harris

      Comment


      • Originally posted by PrimalJewishAmericanPrincess View Post
        Your thought experiment is just your own self-important fantasy. Because what you are proposing (starvation diet) has already been done countless times, you simply added a sadistic twist and tried to mask it as something smart. I have lots of hate, but I don't promote it as an experiment, I let it free to engulf all those around me and increase my metabolic rate.


        Funniest words and speculations that I have read for a very long time...
        "All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident."

        - Schopenhauer

        Comment


        • Originally posted by PrimalJewishAmericanPrincess View Post
          Imagine if we put all pregnant inner city women on an island and forced them to have abortions, would it decrease the amount of crime in the inner city in 16 years (the average age of inner city youth commiting their first crime)? Would it cause a small decrease in the amount of welfare applications in 18 years?

          Imagine if we put all sociopaths in a room, forced to watch nothing other than that Sarah McLachlan commercial about the ASPCA, would they finally show compassion?
          Actually, now that you mention it....
          “The whole concept of a macronutrient, like that of a calorie, is determining our language game in such a way that the conversation is not making sense." - Dr. Kurt Harris

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Gorbag View Post
            Any link to studies?



            Alright, why is waterfast for long periods of time more healthy then? I am not sure that obese persons have been put on a PSMF for a long period of time, and I cannot understand why it should be more unhealty than a waterfast.



            Oh, thank you for advising me then, I thought that people got provoked by my signature and my avatar...
            Nope, I'm not going to search studies for you... I've searched and read studied in the past though and assure you that they exist.

            I don't consider either long term water fasting or PSMF to be a healthy weight loss options... both are crash diets that CAN result in severe health problems, and that do not address the underlying weight gain issues and are pretty useless as lifetime weight maintenance/management tools. They create yo-yo diet scenarios which that lead to even more health problems that you don't want to discuss there.
            Simply "losing weight" is often not the greatest battle obese people face. It's not the half of it.

            Healthy dieting and weight loss addresses a change in the way that people view and interact with food. It does not simply remove access to food until they are a "healthy weight". This is something that most healthy weight people in the weight loss industry, such as personal trainers and dietitians, who have never been obese and have no training in psychology fail utterly to understand. Seems like you are missing this a bit too.
            My 2 c.



            As to your sig and your avatar.... nope... I think that was really the least of it. The language of your posts was most likely the issue. Those are details picked out by a couple of specific people. Most people would never have noticed at all.

            Particularly what I pointed out with the "they will" instead of the more neutral sounding "they would". People might not even realize that that is what they are responding to. But because the language "will" sounds like a plan of action no matter how many times you state it's just a "thought experiment" it comes across as irritating. Using "would" sounds neutral and removed, thereby removing the direct action and some of the language that people may find irritating.
            Language is important.
            When speaking on different subjects it is in your favor to understand that and use language that is conducive to your goals. In this case neutral language.

            For instance:
            The obese people will be locked up and guarded and only given 500-700 calories of canned tuna and green vegetables a day!
            or
            The test subjects would be given the prescribed diet to eat during their time in their rooms alone only, not during communal time where food could be shared.

            Same data, the diet had previously been laid out. Very different effect of language.
            “You have your way. I have my way. As for the right way, the correct way, and the only way, it does not exist.”
            ~Friedrich Nietzsche
            And that's why I'm here eating HFLC Primal/Paleo.

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Chaohinon View Post
              No one addressed my first post in this thread which features (granted, it's a lengthy interview) a real life equivalent of an obesity asylum. It completely failed, and forced the researchers to look at issues other than just nutrition & exercise.

              Obesity isn't ALL about diet and exercise, just like drug addiction isn't all about drugs how awesome it is to be high.

              Anecdotally, the vast majority of obese folks I've met are miserable and psychologically damaged people who are repressing trauma. My girlfriend's family is a great example; both sides have very dark, violent histories that no one (except the gf) is even remotely honest about. Consequently 90% of them are catastrophically fat and only continue to decline. Personally, I knew about the primal/paleo thing for 3 years before I stopped being a fat fuck. My improvement coincided directly with me moving away from home and telling my entire family to go fuck themselves with many sharp objects.

              Call me crazy, but it's pretty common knowledge that people use food, sexual promiscuity, and drugs to fill the void where love, happiness, and parental guidance are supposed to be.

              Bottom line: it's been done and it doesn't work.
              I basically said this in the middle of my last post... the thing is Gorbag doesn't want to hear it.
              That is and amazing link BTW..and and Y. E. S. to all of it.
              It's all fucking true.

              All he wants to do is talk "Does PSMF make morbidly obese people lose weight"
              Ummm. Yeah.
              Starve anyone for long enough and they will lose weight.
              Some faster than others, but all of them eventually.
              It can also be incredibly unhealthy for some of them.

              And even if they are volunteers 90% of them will gain it all back (and then some), because they didn't learn to have a healthy relationship with food. They didn't learn to have a healthy relationship with themselves through starvation.
              Do you know what the other side of obesity is from abusive families... eating disorders. Anorexia. Bulimia. Yo-yo diet cycling that is so strict it damages internal organs. Binge/starve self abuse. It's all self abuse that takes the place of the abuse of those who someone was supposed to be able to trust to love them normally and it went terribly wrong.
              “You have your way. I have my way. As for the right way, the correct way, and the only way, it does not exist.”
              ~Friedrich Nietzsche
              And that's why I'm here eating HFLC Primal/Paleo.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by cori93437 View Post
                I don't consider either long term water fasting or PSMF to be a healthy weight loss options... both are crash diets that CAN result in severe health problems, and that do not address the underlying weight gain issues and are pretty useless as lifetime weight maintenance/management tools.
                But it may also be very unhealthy continuing being very obese, high risk factors involved by status quo and all that.

                Originally posted by cori93437 View Post
                They create yo-yo diet scenarios which that lead to even more health problems that you don't want to discuss there. Simply "losing weight" is often not the greatest battle obese people face. It's not the half of it. Healthy dieting and weight loss addresses a change in the way that people view and interact with food. It does not simply remove access to food until they are a "healthy weight". This is something that most healthy weight people in the weight loss industry, such as personal trainers and dietitians, who have never been obese and have no training in psychology fail utterly to understand. Seems like you are missing this a bit too.
                My 2 c.
                I do not necessarily disagree with this, but I tried to limit the topic to metabolic issues concerning the weightloss situation, but since this is hypothetically we can say that all the participants also get psychotherapy and other kind of treatment inside the project.

                Originally posted by cori93437 View Post
                Particularly what I pointed out with the "they will" instead of the more neutral sounding "they would". People might not even realize that that is what they are responding to. But because the language "will" sounds like a plan of action no matter how many times you state it's just a "thought experiment" it comes across as irritating. Using "would" sounds neutral and removed, thereby removing the direct action and some of the language that people may find irritating.
                Language is important.
                When speaking on different subjects it is in your favor to understand that and use language that is conducive to your goals. In this case neutral language.

                For instance:
                The obese people will be locked up and guarded and only given 500-700 calories of canned tuna and green vegetables a day!
                or
                The test subjects would be given the prescribed diet to eat during their time in their rooms alone only, not during communal time where food could be shared.

                Same data, the diet had previously been laid out. Very different effect of language.
                Thank you for teaching me better English, I may be clumsy in formulating my points since English is only my third language, but so far I have got more comments on this somehow notorious thread than I ever got on the Diet Coke thread, so I am a little proud of myself, if you understand...
                "All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident."

                - Schopenhauer

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Gorbag View Post
                  Why? If the body uses dietary protein for gluconeogenesis, then it will recycle it's own amino-acids. I don't think all dietary protein will go to gluconeogenesis either, since the body will prefer to use fat and there will be no hard physical activities involved. And no big deal if some lean mass are lost either, that happens on most diets anyway...

                  Like many other posters here you don't seem to distinguish between a hypothetical "thought-experiment" and what would be done in real life! Those participants are NOT real persons, so we do not have to make a plan for what is going to happen after either - that’s the good thing by dealing with this on a purely theoretical level only! But if you want to make that a topic in another ad-hoc thread, please be my guest.

                  And you and others can spare me any fascist insinuations, you are only showing your own immature childishness by doing so...
                  Most of that dietary protein will be used on gluconeogenesis. Hence the reason why very low-carbers have to eat so much protein in order to maintain muscle mass. Try stopping obsessing about yourself for just one moment and think about the numbers that you are proposing.

                  Chronic low-calorie diets regardless of macronutrient content will always result in muscle loss, as muscle is very expensive to maintain, and pointless in maintaining for a sedentary subject - and for some reason you wish your experimental subjects to be sedentary. The morbidly obese can lose weight very comfortably on twice the calories that you quote in your alleged 'thought experiment'.

                  A thought experiment when used appropriately is a philosophical tool that can make everyone question and reevaluate their beliefs, values and judgments, and provoke intelligent debate.

                  Some posters have contributed such as to steer this thread in such a more positive direction ... however, you have made no such effort to do so.

                  Well ... in my judgment, you have the maturity and intelligence of a slug. Actually, I take that back, as it's insulting to slugs.
                  F 5 ft 3. HW: 196 lbs. Primal SW (May 2011): 182 lbs (42% BF)... W June '12: 160 lbs (29% BF) (UK size 12, US size 8). GW: ~24% BF - have ditched the scales til I fit into a pair of UK size 10 bootcut jeans. Currently aligning towards 'The Perfect Health Diet' having swapped some fat for potatoes.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by paleo-bunny View Post

                    Well ... in my judgment, you have the maturity and intelligence of a slug. Actually, I take that back, as it's insulting to slugs.
                    He,he! you are funny too Bunny, my nine year old daughter could have uttered exactly those words when she get upset about something!

                    No disrespect for slugs though, I am sure they are very interesting animals...
                    "All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident."

                    - Schopenhauer

                    Comment


                    • Within the fictional scenario he created, health outcomes don't matter. That's it. Your insinuation of a fascist mindset on his part is quite a leap. What do you make of this? What would happen if…? Thoughts (and thought experiments) on the calorie issue


                      Originally posted by paleo-bunny View Post
                      Yep, obviously on an ultra-low-carb ultra-low-cal diet most protein is squandered on gluconeogenesis. Hence muscle-wasting is inevitable.



                      Well you didn't state that. Ongoing health outcomes matter to anyone who isn't a facist.

                      Comment


                      • Yes! What if...? That's all there is to it.

                        Originally posted by valmason01 View Post
                        Gorbag I tend to be very sensitive to bigotry, injustice etc. I have been overweight my entire life and in high school was fat w/ glasses. It scars a girl . I find any type of discrimination henious and will fight to the death to correct it. I say all this to say that all I got out of your OP was a what if....What if we did this? How would this work? How does food, energy etc really effect our bodies? I really don't think you meant it as hate against the morbidly obese. For what its worth there is my two cents

                        Comment


                        • Hahaha! Very suspect! Orcs are fascists!


                          Originally posted by Gorbag View Post
                          Yes, I hate to admit it, but it is actually a personage from Tolkien! So, now when Owly has investigated and found my real identity, I am also going to change my avatar so everybody can see what a very suspect personage I am! Thank you for defending me anyway primalcat, seem like this thread took another direction that I planned...

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by sbhikes View Post
                            I suggest looking up quelsen and reading some of his stuff. He made me rethink any assumptions I had about the morbidly obese. I wish he posted more. The stuff he knows is incredible.
                            Was too busy living during the holiday break, trying to catch up but i have not seen much new so far ( on page 15) just a simple rehashing of defamation of character and insults of intelligence.

                            however one thing i do see missing is an acknowledgement that the population in question is one that very few researchers care to objectively investigate.

                            until we can actually settle on a definition of obesity that has zero subjective content the question is moot.

                            someone said it is about health.

                            My truth is the healthy human CANNOT be obese... period... if you have one ounce of (measurable) improper fat, you are diseased somehow.

                            otherwise the human body self regulates to the appropriate ratio of protein to lipids....everything else is unexpended waste
                            Optimum Health powered by Actualized Self-Knowledge.

                            Predator not Prey
                            Paleo Ketogenic Lifestyle

                            CW 315 | SW 506
                            Current Jeans 46 | Starting Jeans 66


                            Contact me: quelsen@gmail.com

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