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  • Originally posted by sbhikes View Post
    I suggest looking up quelsen and reading some of his stuff. He made me rethink any assumptions I had about the morbidly obese. I wish he posted more. The stuff he knows is incredible.
    Agreed. He comes across as a very strong character.
    F 5 ft 3. HW: 196 lbs. Primal SW (May 2011): 182 lbs (42% BF)... W June '12: 160 lbs (29% BF) (UK size 12, US size 8). GW: ~24% BF - have ditched the scales til I fit into a pair of UK size 10 bootcut jeans. Currently aligning towards 'The Perfect Health Diet' having swapped some fat for potatoes.

    Comment


    • Originally posted by paleo-bunny View Post
      Yep, obviously on an ultra-low-carb ultra-low-cal diet most protein is squandered on gluconeogenesis. Hence muscle-wasting is inevitable.
      Why? If the body uses dietary protein for gluconeogenesis, then it will recycle it's own amino-acids. I don't think all dietary protein will go to gluconeogenesis either, since the body will prefer to use fat and there will be no hard physical activities involved. And no big deal if some lean mass are lost either, that happens on most diets anyway...

      Originally posted by paleo-bunny View Post
      Well you didn't state that. Ongoing health outcomes matter to anyone who isn't a facist.
      Like many other posters here you don't seem to distinguish between a hypothetical "thought-experiment" and what would be done in real life! Those participants are NOT real persons, so we do not have to make a plan for what is going to happen after either - that’s the good thing by dealing with this on a purely theoretical level only! But if you want to make that a topic in another ad-hoc thread, please be my guest.

      And you and others can spare me any fascist insinuations, you are only showing your own immature childishness by doing so...
      Last edited by Gorbag; 12-29-2012, 07:40 PM.
      "All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident."

      - Schopenhauer

      Comment


      • Originally posted by NorthernMonkeyGirl View Post
        I don't see the point of your "thought experiment". Weight is irrelevant without health. I also think your tone and phrasing make you sound like a douche.
        Yeah, whatever, blah, blah...

        Originally posted by NorthernMonkeyGirl View Post
        Also, as you are finding with this thread, people do not stick to your rules. I would expect dominant individuals within the camp to take extra food, others to trade food for favours, etc etc.
        And become cannibals and all that? Yeah, you are not the first on this thread to insinuate that obese people will not behave civilized! What do you think happened in similar controlled real life experiments on more extreme fasting then? Don't let your morbid fantasy overshadow clear thinking, just saying...
        "All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident."

        - Schopenhauer

        Comment


        • If you consume higher amounts of protein (at least as a percentage of your diet), then you still have plenty of protein for both gluconeogenesis AND muscle building/sparing. Whether this is optimal or not is another debate for another time.

          I still believe personally, that ketosis spares muscle mass. The transition over to ketosis when the body burns sugars preferentially to fat, even though you are consuming extremely low carb levels might cause you to lose a little muscle mass to gluconeogenesis, but this is easily recovered with some solid weightlifting once the transition is complete.
          "The cling and a clang is the metal in my head when I walk. I hear a sort of, this tinging noise - cling clang. The cling clang. So many things happen while walking. The metal in my head clangs and clings as I walk - freaks my balance out. So the natural thought is just clogged up. Totally clogged up. So we need to unplug these dams, and make the the natural flow... It sort of freaks me out. We need to unplug the dams. You cannot stop the natural flow of thought with a cling and a clang..."

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Gorbag View Post
            Maybe, but why do you think so? The obese Scotsman as referenced by Mark Sisson seem to have done well?



            No! Vitamins to my knowledge does not have energy or calories, but maybe you know something that I don't? The energy from a energy-drink comes from the sugars and the B-vitamins function as a catalyst only, so I don’t get your point at all!



            OK, the biggest coffee and green tea drinkers may possible lose a few pounds more weight throughout the year, so for the sake of the experiment we may use descaffinated coffe and tea instead, just to make everything the same.



            Yes, there will be som individual differences as I also wrote to otzi, but I don't think those will overshadow that every participant will lose huge amounts of weight. That's what I believe anyway.

            And, I never used the word "concentration camp" in my OP! I said let’s put armed guards to prevent food to be smuggled in. It was only meant to illustrate a controlled environment, but if this is still an thorn in the eye of everybody, let’s put the thought-experiment to a beautiful paradise island instead, with all the facilities, and medical staff necessary. The main point is only that only the prescribed diet will be an issue in the experiment and no other “secret” food! No caretaker or other staff creating a black-marked kitchen inside the camp etc…

            I think so because that is how every experiment goes. You have the average....the ones that do not do well....and the ones that do exceedingly well. There are obviously individual factors at play based on hormonal and metabolic health prior to the experiment and in response to the experiment. Yours is a very stressful enviroment for almost an entire year. I expect a lot of problems due to that.

            As to the vitamins...the point was micronutrients are an important factor in health of the organism. They may not contain a caloric load, but our bodies are NOT calorometers. We are biological entities and changes in micronutrient composition will change our metabolic and hormonal functions.

            Actually changing to decaf still presents issues. Decaf is a toxic substance IMO. But, thats beside the point of your little project I suppose.

            Will everyone lose weight? Sure should. That has never been the real question though has it? Who wants to lose weight at the expense of health and quality of life? And given there is ample evidence on how to lose weight while retaining almost all your lean mass why would you chose another way?

            The ultimite goal has always been to make weight loss less dependant on will power by working with our genes rather than against them. This equates to providing our bodies with the BOTH the micronutrients and macro calories to optimize our hormonal system. Fixing that system is paramount to achieving healthy
            weight loss that is sustainable.

            If I haven't stuck to your rules....well too bad. You can't decide to confine peoples responses just because you wish to simplify an exceedingly complicated issue.

            Comment


            • you're obviously too ignorant and immature to understand a thought experiment, neckhammer

              *tap dances out*
              beautiful
              yeah you are

              Baby if you time travel back far enough you can avoid that work because the dust won't be there. You're too pretty to be working that hard.
              lol

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              • I would love an island paradise being fed healthy food with no temptations.

                It would be interesting to see what happened.

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Gorbag View Post
                  Yeah, whatever, blah, blah...
                  Point proved




                  And become cannibals and all that? Yeah, you are not the first on this thread to insinuate that obese people will not behave civilized! What do you think happened in similar controlled real life experiments on more extreme fasting then? Don't let your morbid fantasy overshadow clear thinking, just saying...
                  Ahh sweetie, contain your excitement. I mentioned neither obesity nor cannibals. Basic primate (mammalian? vertebrate?) psychology is not "clear thinking" to you then? Mkay. Have fun out there.

                  Comment


                  • I just love that we can put our bigotry into the form of a "thought experiment" and that makes it okay!

                    Imagine if we put all pregnant inner city women on an island and forced them to have abortions, would it decrease the amount of crime in the inner city in 16 years (the average age of inner city youth commiting their first crime)? Would it cause a small decrease in the amount of welfare applications in 18 years?

                    Imagine if we made all Jews live on $18,000 a year. Would they adapt? Would they go mad? Would they no longer control Hollywood?

                    Imagine if we put all gays in isolation with only members of the opposite sex? Would they become straight?

                    Imagine if we put all sociopaths in a room, forced to watch nothing other than that Sarah McLachlan commercial about the ASPCA, would they finally show compassion?

                    Your thought experiment is just your own self-important fantasy. Because what you are proposing (starvation diet) has already been done countless times, you simply added a sadistic twist and tried to mask it as something smart. I have lots of hate, but I don't promote it as an experiment, I let it free to engulf all those around me and increase my metabolic rate.

                    Comment


                    • it warms the heart to see so many people from all walks of life come together

                      to stand as one

                      (mostly)

                      to say that this is a bad 'thought experiment', in the face of 'you're too ignorant to understand what i'm saying!'
                      beautiful
                      yeah you are

                      Baby if you time travel back far enough you can avoid that work because the dust won't be there. You're too pretty to be working that hard.
                      lol

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by bloodorchid View Post
                        , in the face of 'you're too ignorant to understand what i'm saying!'
                        That is what kills me about so many threads on this forum. Ultimately, the response from many is "you just aren't intelligent enough to understand the position my big brain has taken. Look at all of these links I have posted, I am wise." Anyone who makes a valid argument can do so without providing 20 pages of back-up material, which hardly serves to back anything up most of the time. I believe the earth is flat, I can prove it by posting this link to a fantastic recipe for pork carnitas.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by PrimalJewishAmericanPrincess View Post
                          I have lots of hate, but I don't promote it as an experiment, I let it free to engulf all those around me and increase my metabolic rate.
                          I loved your whole post but this sentence made me spit on my screen in laughter. Would you like a spoon full of sugar to go with that?
                          Female, 5'3", 50, Max squat: 202.5lbs. Max deadlift: 225 x 3.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by PrimalJewishAmericanPrincess View Post

                            Imagine if we put all pregnant inner city women on an island and forced them to have abortions, would it decrease the amount of crime in the inner city in 16 years (the average age of inner city youth commiting their first crime)? Would it cause a small decrease in the amount of welfare applications in 18 years?
                            NOTE: I AM NOT ADVOCATING FORCED ABORTIONS WITH THE FOLLOWING COMMENT

                            Not forced abortions (except, I am sure, in some individual cases due to whacked out relationships) but, yes, the crime rate did go down 16-18 years after abortion became legal in this country. Fewer children brought up in situations where they were not wanted led to fewer people in the situations where crime is almost a given.

                            Also, isn't most bigotry, and certainly in the cases of gays, and probably sociopaths, against a condition that cannot be changed? This assumes Jewish as a chosen religion, not as a 'race' which I know not all do. Pregnancy, of course, is temporary.

                            Obesity is a complex situation. I fear too many people feel that obese people could just lose weight if they wanted to, where most(I would like to say all, but sadly, not able to) of we on MDA know it is not that simple.

                            I think people have really taken Gorbag's original idea and twisted it. Maybe he didn't phrase it as well as he could have, but who among us doesn't do that sometime? I am sure sentences in my post can be twisted around, due to my not being as precise as all would like.

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                            • There is a literal ass load of PSMF research literature out there... Done on the overweight, obese, and even morbidly obese... read some maybe?
                              This experiment has been done, minus the drama and the length. PSMF it seems is most certainly NOT healthy done long term and is generally used in cycles even when monitored by medical staff.

                              Also... Gorbag, your writing style with all of the exclamations and ending sentences in multiple question marks (in serious conversation!?) makes you seem if not in the throws of mania then at least on the verge of manic, and lends much less credence to your posts.
                              Clean it up man.

                              Simple things: like using the language "they would" when referring to what might happen to the test subjects instead of "they will" also makes it sound way less douche-baggy and more hypothetical (i.e. less like something you want to try and recreate in your basement or some creepy abandoned factory building).
                              Last edited by cori93437; 12-30-2012, 12:41 PM.
                              “You have your way. I have my way. As for the right way, the correct way, and the only way, it does not exist.”
                              ~Friedrich Nietzsche
                              And that's why I'm here eating HFLC Primal/Paleo.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Neckhammer View Post
                                As to the vitamins...the point was micronutrients are an important factor in health of the organism. They may not contain a caloric load, but our bodies are NOT calorometers. We are biological entities and changes in micronutrient composition will change our metabolic and hormonal functions.
                                I still don't get it! Do you mean that more vitamins and micronutrients are needed than what comes in the green vegetables, lean protein, fish oil, broth and the extra multivitamin tablet? And all antioxidants in coffee and tea etc. Also remember that large amounts of fat soluble vitamins may be stored in the bodyfat of the participants. So I don't quite see your concerns here?

                                Originally posted by Neckhammer View Post
                                Will everyone lose weight? Sure should. That has never been the real question though has it? Who wants to lose weight at the expense of health and quality of life?
                                So going from a "healthy" very obese person to a much leaner and in your view "unhealthy" person is the scenario you find must likely for most of the participants? Why is this so much more worse than those that did a pure waterfast in real life then?

                                Originally posted by Neckhammer View Post
                                If I haven't stuck to your rules....well too bad. You can't decide to confine peoples responses just because you wish to simplify an exceedingly complicated issue.
                                "Exceedingly complicated issue"? Hmmm, you are sure that you are not overcomplicating things here?
                                "All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident."

                                - Schopenhauer

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