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Thinking like a caveman, is it even possible?

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  • #76
    re: the cancer conversation, How Fasting Fights Cancer | Mark's Daily Apple

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    • #77
      Originally posted by Zach View Post
      Also as to the cancer thought, trying to starve the cancer cell of its energy source would also be starving the body of its main energy source. It is an interesting concept though.
      Of course there is the ketogenic diet approach outlined here:

      Targeting insulin inhibition as a metabolic therap... [Nutrition. 2012] - PubMed - NCBI

      But what I was talking about was the targeting of insulin inhibition via therapy aimed at the specific cancer cells rather than dietary. I happen to know someone that is a participant in a trial for thymus cancer. It's showing promise as a treatment, but its still in the preliminary stages. Much like the ketogenic diet approaches are.

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      • #78
        Originally posted by Zach View Post
        It would be the opposite. Diet that is comprised almost entirely of sugar would keep someone very lean. Just look at anyone eating 80-10-10.
        I know....
        I was trying to be sarcastic, but I guess it didn't come across as such.

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        • #79
          Originally posted by counterpuncher View Post
          I know....
          I was trying to be sarcastic, but I guess it didn't come across as such.
          Hard to read sacrasm about sugar on this forum.

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          • #80
            Skinny people get diabetes all the time. Living largely on fruit is a terrible idea, for very obvious reasons. We are not fruit monkeys. Just look at Durianrider. He's not going to live very long. Already wasting away quite rapidly.

            80/10/10?! Durian-humping mango-chuckers, the lot of you! Don't make me sic Gallagher and his mallet on you!

            Fruit might not be the devil, but there's no way it can compete with a diet of, say, whole prey animals.
            Crohn's, doing SCD

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            • #81
              Knifegill, I don't see why it needs to be a binary. And for some of us, VLC feels like hell. A diet of only animals would be misery for me.

              I don't declare that your ketogenic diet is inferior for you. Please don't claim that my choice to include fruit is inferior for me.
              “If I didn't define myself for myself, I would be crunched into other people's fantasies for me and eaten alive.” --Audre Lorde

              Owly's Journal

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              • #82
                I think one of the mistakes most of us probably make about living like a cave man is to assume our unconscious cultural norms apply.

                Years ago I read an article about the challenges and pitfalls of globalization. One of the anecdotes reported was that car manufacturers who opened factories in Mexico and tried to approach labor from a US/European perspective had tremendous difficulty keeping workers on the job. Not a problem finding people who could do the jobs, but getting them to come in to work every day. You know, like 99% of workers in the 1st world do. Workers in these car plants in Mexico would work a day or two then stop showing up until they needed more money.

                Why?

                In the US it can reasonably be assumed that you (or any worker) will keep working as long as someone is willing to pay you more. It isn't hard to find people willing to work 70+ hours a week. That's arguably changing (the whole "life balance"thing) but that's mostly for salary jobs than hourly. The fact that I could survive on $10k/yr, or pretty comfortably live on $50k/yr, hasn't caused me to throttle back and work fewer hours once I passed those milestones. A 20% raise wouldn't cause me to cut my hours by 20%.

                But that's cultural. It isn't how everyone behaves, as the people opening car plants in Mexico discovered. The solution to their problem was pay cuts, until the workers needed to work 40hrs/WK to survive. Without doing that, the workers just didn't see the point in showing up. The difference isn't genetic, isn't a matter of intelligence, it's cultural.

                So... We assume that if Grok had unlimited fruit, or meat, or whatever, Grok would fatten up. Another perfectly reasonable hypothesis is that Grok would spend less time on survival and more time having fun, which of course naturally tends to produce a lot of Groklings, and soon the abundance wouldn't be sufficient. It just depends on Grok's cultural framework.

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                • #83
                  Originally posted by Neckhammer
                  Well he did say 80/10/10 sucked. I don't think thats your diet. I'm all for live and let live, but I do have a suspicion that if you cut your fats to under 30% of your maintenance level diet your going to invite a lot of issues due to lack of fat soluble vitamins and structural precursors for hormones. Probably why you read about a prevalence of depressive and other psychological disorders a that extreme.

                  Heck that goes for anyone not eating the right fats in any quantity for that matter.
                  Yes, re-reading his post I see I misinterpreted what he was saying.

                  I couldn't even be a vegetarian successfully (I did try). I can't imagine trying to do the 80/10/10 raw fruitarian thing. I love my fruit, but I also love a big-ass post-workout steak or a bowl of scrambled eggs with avocado and salsa. I am so much happier now that I don't try to do silly things like Meatless Mondays and limiting meat to one 4oz serving a day. Some of the banana people are lean, sure, but long term, their health really suffers, and there are lots of stories of people gaining weight on 80/10/10 too (CI/CO still matters even if one's diet is almost entirely sugar or entirely fat).

                  By the way, did you know that if a woman comments at the end of her lifting that now it's time to go home and eat the hell out of some steak, every man in the gym will look at her male partner with awe and envy? True story.
                  “If I didn't define myself for myself, I would be crunched into other people's fantasies for me and eaten alive.” --Audre Lorde

                  Owly's Journal

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                  • #84
                    Originally posted by Owly View Post
                    Yes, re-reading his post I see I misinterpreted what he was saying.

                    I couldn't even be a vegetarian successfully (I did try). I can't imagine trying to do the 80/10/10 raw fruitarian thing. I love my fruit, but I also love a big-ass post-workout steak or a bowl of scrambled eggs with avocado and salsa. I am so much happier now that I don't try to do silly things like Meatless Mondays and limiting meat to one 4oz serving a day. Some of the banana people are lean, sure, but long term, their health really suffers, and there are lots of stories of people gaining weight on 80/10/10 too (CI/CO still matters even if one's diet is almost entirely sugar or entirely fat).

                    By the way, did you know that if a woman comments at the end of her lifting that now it's time to go home and eat the hell out of some steak, every man in the gym will look at her male partner with awe and envy? True story.
                    haha thats awesome!

                    I did vegetarian (actually closer to vegan) for about three months. Was absolutely not for me. But, hey I gave it a chance.

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                    • #85
                      Originally posted by Him View Post
                      I think one of the mistakes most of us probably make about living like a cave man is to assume our unconscious cultural norms apply.

                      Years ago I read an article about the challenges and pitfalls of globalization. One of the anecdotes reported was that car manufacturers who opened factories in Mexico and tried to approach labor from a US/European perspective had tremendous difficulty keeping workers on the job. Not a problem finding people who could do the jobs, but getting them to come in to work every day. You know, like 99% of workers in the 1st world do. Workers in these car plants in Mexico would work a day or two then stop showing up until they needed more money.

                      Why?

                      In the US it can reasonably be assumed that you (or any worker) will keep working as long as someone is willing to pay you more. It isn't hard to find people willing to work 70+ hours a week. That's arguably changing (the whole "life balance"thing) but that's mostly for salary jobs than hourly. The fact that I could survive on $10k/yr, or pretty comfortably live on $50k/yr, hasn't caused me to throttle back and work fewer hours once I passed those milestones. A 20% raise wouldn't cause me to cut my hours by 20%.

                      But that's cultural. It isn't how everyone behaves, as the people opening car plants in Mexico discovered. The solution to their problem was pay cuts, until the workers needed to work 40hrs/WK to survive. Without doing that, the workers just didn't see the point in showing up. The difference isn't genetic, isn't a matter of intelligence, it's cultural.

                      So... We assume that if Grok had unlimited fruit, or meat, or whatever, Grok would fatten up. Another perfectly reasonable hypothesis is that Grok would spend less time on survival and more time having fun, which of course naturally tends to produce a lot of Groklings, and soon the abundance wouldn't be sufficient. It just depends on Grok's cultural framework.
                      Awesome post! That all certainly lines up with a natural intuitiveness to limit stress that people seem to be losing.

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                      • #86
                        Originally posted by Neckhammer View Post
                        haha thats awesome!

                        I did vegetarian (actually closer to vegan) for about three months. Was absolutely not for me. But, hey I gave it a chance.
                        I made it about a year in my teens, and then made a half-assed attempt at it in my late 20s (more flexitarian than full-on veg because it was after my celiac diagnosis and being a vegetarian celiac is a mess--makes eating in restaurants while paleo look like a walk in the park in comparison). I am definitely a natural omnivore and feel happiest when I have a mix of plant and animal foods, and I really, really love eggs...no idea why exactly, but runny yolks are one of life's joys.
                        “If I didn't define myself for myself, I would be crunched into other people's fantasies for me and eaten alive.” --Audre Lorde

                        Owly's Journal

                        Comment


                        • #87
                          As for the 80-10-10 comment, i was just using that as an example of sugar not being a direct cause of obesity. I dont think it is healthy at all. I do think that if Durian Rider added in some salt, a bit of dairy and a bit of red meat that he would see vast improvements in his health. The fruitarian diet really isnt all that horrible it just goes to extremes that if avoided could make it a very viable diet.

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                          • #88
                            Originally posted by KathyH View Post
                            I dont understand this post. What do you mean fruit season is short? There are places that have fruits available all year long. Are you taking about where you live?
                            for much of the world, there are growing seasons. just using my area as an example, and pretending that grocery stores with year round shipped in fruit don't exist, there are summer crops and there are fall/winter crops

                            it takes weeks for something to become ripe enough to eat and back then there was no preservation. it was get it before the insects and other animals got it (or some sort of blight), and then eat it before it rotted on the ground or limb/vine and went to seed

                            it's a very small window, and not realistic to state that all ancient man had to do was get up from his nap and pick something off the tree to eat any time he wanted, year round. even if he'd been roaming nearer the equator, it still wouldn't have been THAT easy to eat as much as he wanted, whenever he wanted
                            beautiful
                            yeah you are

                            Baby if you time travel back far enough you can avoid that work because the dust won't be there. You're too pretty to be working that hard.
                            lol

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                            • #89
                              Originally posted by bloodorchid View Post
                              for much of the world, there are growing seasons. just using my area as an example, and pretending that grocery stores with year round shipped in fruit don't exist, there are summer crops and there are fall/winter crops

                              it takes weeks for something to become ripe enough to eat and back then there was no preservation. it was get it before the insects and other animals got it (or some sort of blight), and then eat it before it rotted on the ground or limb/vine and went to seed

                              it's a very small window, and not realistic to state that all ancient man had to do was get up from his nap and pick something off the tree to eat any time he wanted, year round. even if he'd been roaming nearer the equator, it still wouldn't have been THAT easy to eat as much as he wanted, whenever he wanted
                              If you consider the native Amizon tribes, they have rainy vs. dry seasons. When the Amazon river floods you can bet they're eating more seafood and less vegetable matter due to not being able to forage as well.

                              When the river recedes again, they can get back to foraging for nuts, berries, and vegetables. So even in tropical climates there likely was some seasonable availability of certain foods.

                              That said, I think even the tropical tribes are a poor example of "certain people had foods available all year." In my opinion, this is unlikely at best.
                              "The cling and a clang is the metal in my head when I walk. I hear a sort of, this tinging noise - cling clang. The cling clang. So many things happen while walking. The metal in my head clangs and clings as I walk - freaks my balance out. So the natural thought is just clogged up. Totally clogged up. So we need to unplug these dams, and make the the natural flow... It sort of freaks me out. We need to unplug the dams. You cannot stop the natural flow of thought with a cling and a clang..."

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                              • #90
                                ^ high five
                                beautiful
                                yeah you are

                                Baby if you time travel back far enough you can avoid that work because the dust won't be there. You're too pretty to be working that hard.
                                lol

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