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Primal diet - Pros and Cons?

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  • Originally posted by Knifegill View Post
    This thread is hilarious. Eat real food with solid micronutrient density and low toxicity in whatever macronutrient ratios ACTUALLY work for you. If something didn't work, try adding or eliminating a food, do a whole 30, count calories (or stop counting calories), etc. Pay attention to the population trends (vegetable oil = heart disease, etc.), roll with local availability, and freaking RELAX.

    Eating crappy seed oils gives me gigantic pus-cysts on my face and back, etc. so they're obviously bad for me. It's easy to tell other people these oils are bad for them, but there isn't solid evidence to be honest, so I really shouldn't be making that assertion anymore.

    I added fruit to my diet and am eating less fat, calories are the same. My abs have disappeared and I've gained 5 pounds. And I keep getting so hungry! And, for the first time in three years, I have SCUM on my teeth. So derp, zach and you other sugar bees can stop pretending sugar is universally beneficial now. I took your advice and it's crap. Fail. I'm glad it worked out for you. Keep on keeping on if you're healthy and happy. But I don't want to be fat, and I'm already at the heavy end of the spectrum thanks to my thick build. The last thing I need is a spare tire, too. So I'm dialing the fruit back and getting back to what was working, perhaps a little less protein than before.
    So, you ate fruit and gained 5lbs, lost your "abs" and you're claiming not to have any metabolic abnormality? oookay.
    Make America Great Again

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    • Originally posted by longing2bfit View Post
      It does seem like an oxymoron around here to hear people talking about eating whole foods yet discussing the merits of things processed like bacon.... etc.
      I've been harping on this for a while (see my post above). It started when I tried to defend whey powder and was lambasted by the Eat Real Food Police. The whole foods categorization doesn't work on SADs either.

      This is a pretty good thread. It seems to bring out all the N=1 exceptions of people who are, for some reason, metabolically outside the Primal/Paleo tent -- all very good information. For my N=1, healthwise I did very well on a nearly pure Primal leptin reset. But after a year I still can't kick the sugar or dairy habit. I'm standing just inside the open flap of the Primal/Paleo tent, working my way further in.

      I also think it's pretty funny that we're arguing over whether 80g carb is "low" or 100 g carb is "high." I believe that grams of carbs or % fat is the wrong way to measure. It's enough to say that veg carbs are good, grain carbs are bad, and fruit and potato carbs are okay but restricted. Fat should be measured on a satiety scale; that is, if we can distinguish between real hunger, emotional hunger, and sugar cravings. When I straighten out my macro sources, distinguish my cravings, and adjust for my teeny size, I come very close to Mark's original carb curve and macro proportions.
      5'0" female, 45 years old. Started Primal October 31, 2011, at a skinny fat 111.5 lbs. Low weight: 99.5 lb on a fast. Gained back to 115(!) on SAD chocolate, potato chips, and stress. Currently 111.

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      • Originally posted by Paleobird View Post
        Meanwhile you preach the gospel according to Ray Peat as if it were The Answer for Everyone. Talk about hypocrisy.
        This is a lazy response and an untrue statement. Never once have I EVER preached anything. I certainly don't agree with everything Ray Peat has written, nor do I agree or do most of what he recommends. However, using some of his information has helped me tremendously.

        I find it highly insulting that when someone says they ate high fat/low carb and that it didn't work for them, your response is 'no one ever said primal was supposed to be high fat' aftter starting a 1,000 page thread on how if primal isn't working for you, it's because you're not eating a high enough percentage of fat.

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        • Originally posted by canuck416 View Post
          Great, thanks for the overview. Interesting that you don't have any protein with breakfast, personally that would probably cause a bit of blood sugar crash for me later in the morning, especially if I had it with coffee. I am assuming the pasta is gluten free based on your no-gluten philosopy. It actually kind of sounds like Paleo, or what I think of as Paleo, which is basically just avoiding, grains, soy, HFC, legumes, omega 6 oils and eating organic etc. The bottom line is you are feeling great and you are getting the body physiology results you want so congratulations.
          Last year, I was eating either a high protein or high fat breakfast because I was finding that doing so lowered my hunger levels and kept me feeling fuller longer. (I started doing this shortly before all those crazy leptin reset threads...remember those?)

          I liked eating this way for a period of time because I had a history of binge-eating, and I was hoping that eating like this would prevent it from ever returning. My husband (who came from Italy a few years ago) always thought our big American breakfasts of eggs and bacon and pancakes were horrifying (they never eat eggs there for breakfast, it's strictly a dinner food). He was used to having a few cookies, or a tiny little pastry for breakfast...a typical Italian breakfast is a brioche and espresso.

          That got me thinking...if a whole country of people can have a couple of cookies for breakfast, have no culture of snacking or junk food, and eat normal-sized carb-heavy meals for the rest of the day, and not be anywhere near obese, why am I soooo obsessed with this blood sugar thing? Clearly Italy isn't filled with a bunch of blood sugar crashing psychos.

          I kind of stewed with those thoughts for a bit, and I realized that my binge-eating was psychological, and blaming it on blood sugar was really a scapegoat. I had a very emotional relationship with food, which I never fully appreciated at the time. Those high protein or high fat breakfasts were really just temporarily masking the problem. Or maybe, I did need those breakfasts for a period of time in order to get where I am...I have no way of knowing.

          Switching my diet to what it is now was a very difficult decision, and I resisted it for months because I wanted so, so much to believe that low carb primal was the answer...it seemed to cure and heal so many people, and on paper it makes so much sense. And knowing that I did for a period of time feel good on paleo/primal before slowly declining makes me vigilant about looking for changes in how I'm doing on this current way of eating. It's possible I may not feel great 2 years from now...or maybe after all this time I finally cracked it. Only time will tell.

          I did actually think of a pro for primal eating: it helped me to see that eating good quality saturated fat won't trigger an MS flare, so it's not something to fear. All the MS diets I've come across demonize saturated fat and attribute flares to eating too much of it. I didn't want to believe that, either, but the very limited research I could find at the time supported it. It was very scary to increase my fat level, knowing that I could end up paralyzed but I never once had a problem. So, ultimately, I'm glad it's something I tried because it's always good to have one less fear.

          Originally posted by Zach View Post
          Best, your experience mirrors mine exactly. Very interesting. Why do you not eat dairy?
          I don't eat dairy because shortly after I had my first MS symptom, I did a ton of research on dietary interventions and I came across information about how damaging gluten and casein proteins can be for folks with MS; I'm not clear if this is an issue for people both with and without leaky guts, but the theory is that the gluten/casein proteins escape into the bloodstream partially digested. The immune system attacks them because they don't belong in the bloodstream, and since they are very similar to the protein of the mylein sheath, the body switches over to attacking this and voila! MS.

          This was my original reason for eliminating dairy. After a few months of being dairy-free, my acne cleared up, and anytime I tried to reintroduce dairy as an experiment, my acne always came back (I tried grass-fed, raw, and goat milk, and had the same reaction to everything).

          At this point, I think that I've probably healed my leaky gut, and could possibly include dairy, but 1) I prefer not to have acne and 2) I don't know if the possible consequences, however unlikely, are worth the risk.
          Last edited by BestBetter; 12-27-2012, 07:45 AM.

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          • I am glad you continue to share your insights, BB. Thank you.
            My Journal: http://www.marksdailyapple.com/forum/thread57916.html
            When I let go of what I am, I become what I might be.

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            • Originally posted by BestBetter View Post

              I liked eating this way for a period of time because I had a history of binge-eating, and I was hoping that eating like this would prevent it from ever returning. My husband (who came from Italy a few years ago) always thought our big American breakfasts of eggs and bacon and pancakes were horrifying (they never eat eggs there for breakfast, it's strictly a dinner food). He was used to having a few cookies, or a tiny little pastry for breakfast...a typical Italian breakfast is a brioche and espresso.

              That got me thinking...if a whole country of people can have a couple of cookies for breakfast, have no culture of snacking or junk food, and eat normal-sized carb-heavy meals for the rest of the day, and not be anywhere near obese, why am I soooo obsessed with this blood sugar thing? Clearly Italy isn't filled with a bunch of blood sugar crashing psychos.
              Just to correct - only having a small biscuit for breakfast is very much a post-WW2 thing.

              And it does make them fat. Especially the middle-aged women.

              If they do enough physical activity and eat enough seafood (with O3) and stay away from veggie-oil they are able to stave off obesity longer than Americans, but that doesn't mean that their breakfast isn't sabotaging their health.

              Yes, my husband is European too.

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              • Originally posted by SarahW View Post
                Just to correct - only having a small biscuit for breakfast is very much a post-WW2 thing.

                And it does make them fat. Especially the middle-aged women.

                If they do enough physical activity and eat enough seafood (with O3) and stay away from veggie-oil they are able to stave off obesity longer than Americans, but that doesn't mean that their breakfast isn't sabotaging their health.

                Yes, my husband is European too.
                Out of curiousity, what would a pre-world wars European breakfast have been like? I know it would vary from location to location or class to class, but what's a general idea? I tend to imagine farms, with meat & eggs and a slice of toast. That's kind of the old pioneer thing (except maybe grits or porridge of some kind too/instead) for the US, which would've been pre-world wars and probably very much still inspired by the European ancestry/habits.

                Man, just thinking of people eating breakfast at a cafe makes me want to go back to Europe so badly. Screw my stomach.
                Depression Lies

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                • Originally posted by SarahW View Post
                  that doesn't mean that their breakfast isn't sabotaging their health.
                  No argument with this...I was speaking strictly from a blood sugar perspective; thinking about how they eat a few cookies for breakfast, being fine until lunch and then dinner with no snacking and not having the constant food obsession we have here in the States really caused some cognitive dissonance coming from a diet that is insulin-spiking phobic.

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                  • Originally posted by namelesswonder View Post
                    Out of curiousity, what would a pre-world wars European breakfast have been like? I know it would vary from location to location or class to class, but what's a general idea? I tend to imagine farms, with meat & eggs and a slice of toast. That's kind of the old pioneer thing (except maybe grits or porridge of some kind too/instead) for the US, which would've been pre-world wars and probably very much still inspired by the European ancestry/habits.

                    Man, just thinking of people eating breakfast at a cafe makes me want to go back to Europe so badly. Screw my stomach.
                    From what I've gathered, in the pre-industrial times breakfast for the rich would be leftover roasted meat or cured meat and some cheese. For the poor, they would get the beef broth spooned over the hollowed out bread crust (people used to like their bread crust-less, as bread cooked in a dirty smokey oven tended to produce dirty smokey crusts) which served as a "plate".

                    After New World food was introduced Europeans took to drinking hot chocolate for breakfast.

                    Bread became more common after industrial milling brought down the price. But it wasn't until WW2 caused massive famines, economic scarcity, and a collapse of farming communities that cheap (and nonperishable) foods such as sugar and flour became standard. Now that there is a whole generation trying to ape American "low-fat" diets...you can add margarine to that list.

                    No argument with this...I was speaking strictly from a blood sugar perspective; thinking about how they eat a few cookies for breakfast, being fine until lunch and then dinner with no snacking and not having the constant food obsession we have here in the States really caused some cognitive dissonance coming from a diet that is insulin-spiking phobic.
                    I don't think they're "fine." Nearly all Continental Europeans I've met are strung out on drinking coffee and/or smoking cigarettes throughout the day. They say that coffee-time is "cultural" but I think it more likely that the coffee + coffee biscuit is masking chronic blood sugar issues.

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                    • In Russia, at least, it would have been hot cereal (millet or buckwheat most commonly) that was left to 'slow-cook' overnight on top of the stove from the residual heat, with milk or butter & bread. I don't think that you will find heavy meat eaters across Europenian cultures post-agricultural development. However, that diet of cheap grain, tubers, all-animal parts meat, dairy and vegetables/fermented vegetables supported a heavy labor lifestyle with undereating forced by poverty.
                      My Journal: http://www.marksdailyapple.com/forum/thread57916.html
                      When I let go of what I am, I become what I might be.

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                      • maybe it's the longer paid holidays and multi-year paid maternity leave that keeps their stress down---along with keeping the damn GMOs out of their food supply---that allows them more leniency with their foods!?
                        Check out my blog on nature and nurture!
                        http://thewoodsygal.com/

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                        • Longing2befit, if you check out DannyRoddy.com you will find out that hair loss is a pretty commin symptom of low carb and paleo diets.

                          Knifegill, i find i funny that you come here and tell us to RELAX when from what i gather, you are one of the most orthorexic people on this forum. You eat a extremely low carb diet and have irrational fears of foods like your silly pizza thread. You tried a few pieces of fruit and gave up twice in the last month or so even though you know it takes long then that to repopulate your gut. 5lbs scared you into giving up. 5lbs is nothing, it could be water weight or some initial fat gain while your body adjusts or both.

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                          • I stumbled across this web site in early November. After reading up on the basics, the PB concept made perfect sense to me. I have tried to eat healthy for years. But my "healthy" diet included a lot of grains (gluten). I didn't know grains were bad for me. My experience since early November has been the following:

                            Pros:

                            Enjoying my meals more
                            Feeling full for a longer period of time
                            Introduction of new foods in my diet
                            Weight loss
                            Performing exercises that fit into my schedule and I can continue to perform

                            Cons:

                            More expensive
                            Sometimes difficult finding organic and grass-fed foods
                            Major digestion problems


                            My transition was fairly abrupt - and simple. I was already eating my share of fresh or frozen fruits and veggies - carrots, broccoli, baby spinach, romaine lettuce, apples, strawberries, grapes. I continue to eat them. I am allegic to all nuts so I cannot eat any of them. My only real source of fat was canned pacific red salmon. I usually had it daily as a sandwich at work. My plan was to replace the grains (bread, snacks of pretzels, chips and popcorn, morning bowl of shredded wheat or raisen bran) with fats and protein (eggs, chicken, beef, avocadoes, yogurt).

                            I am a 6'5" 49 year old man. I have a slender build. My body composition was mostly bones and blubber - I don't have much muscle. Since I am tall, I didn't look to be overweight - but I knew the blubber was there. When I started, I weighed about 215 lbs. 7 or 8 weeks into this program, I now weigh about 195 lbs. The weight came off easily - I also added walking about 5 hours per week.

                            By far, the biggest problem for me has been digestion. Before I started the program, I always felt fine. I never get sick. For the first 4 or 5 weeks, I felt fine. Then, my stomach started to feel a bit queezy. It has since gotten worse - sometimes to the point of feeling nauseous. My bowel movements became very infrequent. I rarely felt hungry even when I hadn't eaten for many, many hours. However, when I did eat, I found I could still eat a big meal when I wanted to. My Christmas dinner was as big as any other year. So, even though my queezy stomach didn't feel hungry, it must have been near empty or I could not have eaten Christmas dinner.

                            I need to find a solution to this problem soon. Otherwise, I will have to abandon PB. I am assuming one or more of the new foods is not agreeing with me. I am now backing off on the new foods to see if I feel better. Then I will re-introduce each one slowly to gauge the effects on me. It is possible that it is not any specific food that's the problem but rather a diet higher in fat and protein than I am accustomed to. If that is the case, then I hope my body will adjust to this new diet fairly soon. Except for avocadoes, I have eaten all of my "new" foods in the past (as a kid or years ago). I like them all - although avocadoes take some getting used to. Hopefully, this will work out for me. The PB lifestyle makes so much sense to me that I can't believe it cannot work for me. After all, I think I have the same evolutionary history as Grok!!

                            Has anyone else experienced my symptoms? If so, how did you address them?

                            Regards,

                            Kevin

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                            • Kevin, what "new foods" are you eating? Any coconut products? Also, it could be that you are eating too much protein. Perhaps you need more veggies. You'll have to tweak things to see what works (more or less protein/carbs/fiber/fat). Different things work for different people.
                              Depression Lies

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                              • Originally posted by KevinM View Post
                                ....I have eaten all of my "new" foods in the past (as a kid or years ago). I like them all - although avocadoes take some getting used to. Hopefully, this will work out for me. The PB lifestyle makes so much sense to me that I can't believe it cannot work for me. After all, I think I have the same evolutionary history as Grok!!

                                Has anyone else experienced my symptoms? If so, how did you address them?

                                Regards,

                                Kevin
                                Perhaps list a day or two of what you actually consume including what sort of cuts of beef or chicken and portion sizes. Best to be keeping track anyhow so as to find the culprit or add what you may be missing. Magnesium comes to mind if you dont eat nuts or seeds.

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