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  • Funny that hey, we are told eat shit loads of veg cos they are so good for you, but they just make me feel gross.

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    • Opps sorry, here you go

      Have I got this right?
      Is this OK? Aiming for 65 kg for now. I am 107.4 kg, and 158 cm tall.
      Calories - 1600
      Carbohydrates - 40g (10%)
      Protein - 60g (15%)
      Fat 133g (75%)

      Do I need to change anything?

      Comment


      • As one who unfortunately lived in the "zone of misery" after a very long stint of ketosis (which was GREAT) for a while, Paleobird's original "Eat Moar Fat" thread brought about an epiphany for me. I was going too low on the fat and too high on the protein, which continually knocked me out of ketosis and left me feeling like utter crap. I think it's very similar to the info Chris posted from Peter Attia's site earlier, so apologies if it's totally redundant. Paleobird explains it well, herself:



        "This post is inspired by a new forum member named Barbara who PMed me asking my advice about her weight loss situation. I was about to direct her to my two mega threads about calorie counting

        http://www.marksdailyapple.com/forum/thread24580.html
        http://www.marksdailyapple.com/forum/thread29501.html

        when I realized that my thinking has really moved on from there recently with my experiments in nutritional ketosis.

        When I first wanted to lose weight, before finding PB, I just "went low carb" and lost the first 30 easily. Then came The Dreaded Stall.
        I found PB and was delighted with the whole concept. But then I became one of those fresh faced newbies with the "Why am I not losing weight?" questions. Great food but they scale wasn't moving.

        The answer I kept getting over and over again was a resounding, "EAT MOAR FAT!" So I did. And gained weight.

        Looking back, I see that this experience caused me to reject the whole high fat paradigm and embrace calorie counting instead. And that worked. I lost another 35 pounds and reached my goals.

        Now, at a stable good weight I'm trying deep nutritional ketosis for the control of my seizures with less medication.
        Details for those who are interested :http://www.marksdailyapple.com/forum/thread64225.html

        I'm now finally "getting" what the forum pundits were saying about "EAT MOAR FAT!". They were right except that was a simplistic way to put it. If they had said, "Eat a higher proportion of your calories as fat while keeping your protein moderate and your carbs low AND your total calorie intake in check", that would have been perfect.

        But everyone kept telling me that calories didn't matter and that my body would just wonderfully "know" when to stop eating and that I should just "listen" to my body. Um, my body had just recovered from cancer and chemo at the time. It was too confused to be "telling" me anything that made sense.

        Note to newbies: Read the book first.

        So I dialed back the fat, reduced calories and powered through on lean protein, lots of it. And it worked. So I'm not knocking that approach.

        I just can't tell you how much better I feel, however, while in deep ketosis. I feel like leaping tall buildings.

        So, no, I am not saying that calorie counting should be tossed. Just that the two approaches, the "EAT MOAR FAT!" Camp and the "Calories Count so Count Your Calories Camp" need to be synthesized into one. Ketosis is the key that brings them together.

        No, you can't eat unlimited quantities of food, regardless of macros, and expect to lose weight. Reality doesn't work that way. But eating ketogenic macros consistently over time makes it soooo much easier to limit portion sizes. I have to really push myself to make sure to eat enough so as not to lose too much more.

        I think where a lot of Primals go wrong is in embracing all those yummy primal meats so much that we overdo the protein portion of the equation and thereby knock ourselves out of ketosis. Then, still trying to hold down the carbs, we get stuck in what Dr. Peter Attia of The Eating Academy calls the "Zone of Misery", not enough carbs to run on glucose but too much protein to allow for efficient metabolism of fat. Stuck in the middle and generally feeling like crap.

        It seems to me that many people who say, "I can't do low carbs. I tried it and felt awful" perhaps could have gotten out of that Zone of Misery by dialing back the protein a bit. Maybe a filet mignon instead of a porterhouse for dinner.

        So, to Barbara and anyone else who wants to know "what works for weight loss", the answer is , "a lot of things can work including the lean protein, limited calorie approach that I took". If the question is what works while making you feel invincible, the answer is ketosis."
        Life is not a matter of having good cards, but of playing a poor hand well.

        - Robert Louis Stevenson

        Comment


        • Originally posted by Ayla2010 View Post
          Opps sorry, here you go

          Have I got this right?
          Is this OK? Aiming for 65 kg for now. I am 107.4 kg, and 158 cm tall.
          Calories - 1600
          Carbohydrates - 40g (10%)
          Protein - 60g (15%)
          Fat 133g (75%)

          Do I need to change anything?
          I take a slightly different approach. I know my goal weight (110 pounds/50kg). I have a desired bodyfat % (15% - I'm post menopausal). Ergo, my goal LBM = .85*50kg = 42.5kg. For any rule based on LBM, that's my number.

          Phinney & Volek recommend .6 - 1.0 g protein/pound reference weight (goal weight). That for me would mean .6(110) - 110 g protein per day, or 66 - 100g/day. I have learned through experience that I need to be <40g carb/day to lose weight/feel right. And for me, the lower, the better. The rest is fat - and I eat to satisfaction, with the rest of the "dietary" fat coming from internal stores.

          I seem to feel better and hit ketosis better closer to Dr. Jan Kwasniewski's rules:

          1. Ideal weight in kg = (height in cm - 100) -- for me that's 55kg (121 pounds)
          2. Daily protein at 1g/kg ideal weight, +/- 10% -- so for me, that's 55 +/- 5.5g
          3. Daily carbs at .5g/kg (half the protein grams) -- so ~28 +/- 3g
          4. The rest is fat. And the less fat I eat (I eat plenty), the more I "eat" from those internal stores.

          I'm down to the last few pounds, so it's going to be slow ... but I'm at 129 now. When I got serious about losing weight, I was 186. I did the first part on sheer calorie counting (Discipline!! and lots of hunger). It got easier with low carb, and a LOT easier when I dropped the last grains.

          Now I'm losing slowly but steadily with really lousy amounts of exercise. When I do get serious exercise, I bump my protein more towards Phinney & Volek values. When I'm just slogging away on the laptop all day and half the night, I use more the Kwasniewski values.

          N=1 is your best bet.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by tomi View Post
            First - I don't know what HCL is..........
            Second - I'm on Armour and my thyroid is now slightly overcompensated, but the doc says as long as I feel good I can stay where I am. Apparently my thyroid is in a happy place now. Does that still mean I have thyroid issues?

            Honeybuns - I think you're on to something about the type of fat ............ cuz when I eat almond butter I bloat up! Thats why I stopped buying it for a short time - then I found it at Costco for a GREAT price and was hooked again. I need to just wave the white flag where the nut butter is concerned!
            Tomi, I am right there with you on the nut and nut butter issue. Actually, that reaction is a pretty common complaint that I've seen mentioned by many on the forum, especially those with autoimmune issues. I have to keep them out of the house, because even knowing what they'll do to my guts doesn't keep me from attacking. They call my name, I swear.

            Like you, I don't have a gallbladder and I don't have problems with most fats anymore. Early on, I took ox bile and HCL. I still take Now Super Enzymes, which I believe contain a little of both, along with other enzymes. I don't have those issues anymore as long as I stay away from those damn nuts.
            Last edited by GoJenGo; 01-07-2013, 06:56 PM.
            Life is not a matter of having good cards, but of playing a poor hand well.

            - Robert Louis Stevenson

            Comment


            • I chatted with PB about it, and I think ill use this as a rough guide and see how I go.
              1,200 calories
              Carbs - 30 g
              Fat - 93 g
              Protein - 60 g

              Will do this via my 2 meals still, and go from there.
              But if I am hungry I will eat, no starving myself ever again.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by tomi View Post
                Okay - I can give it a month and see what happens. I was wondering if there was some sort of adjustment period. I remember reading the "miserable for the first 6 weeks" part on Attia's blog - but didn't remember anything about bloat and gain. I'll stick it out - try to up the fat just a tad more and decrease the others a tad. Guess I need to start eating avacados - not may favorite. I'll do some more research on upping the fat and try some of the suggested "fat bomb" ideas and recipes. The weird thing is - I tried this once before and I quickly lost 10 pounds and felt really great! So I'm not sure what is different now.

                But, I won't complain anymore - I'll just knuckle down and stay the course. But I sure don't want a month to go by with NO weight loss! That would totally blow my schedule! My official weigh day is friday - so I'll check back in and report. Thanks for the help
                My advice... stop focusing on what you can't control. You cannot control what your body does with weight. You can do things that SHOULD cause weight loss, but you can't really control what's going to happen. Just focus on eating right, exercising within the constraints of your limitations and let it be what it'll be. I know it's frustrating to not see progress on the scale, but as a woman with a thyroid condition, missing organs and an autoimmune disorder, you have a LOT of stuff going on in there. It might be that your body is focusing on healing and that this stint in ketosis will help with that but not necessarily get you to lose right away. Just stay the course and see what happens. I wish you luck with the scale, but it's really not the only measure you have to determine how well you're doing.


                Originally posted by Ayla2010 View Post
                OK fixed my settings.
                Is this OK? Aiming for 65 kg for now. I am 107.4 kg, and 158 cm tall.
                Calories - 1600
                Carbohydrates - 40g (10%)
                Protein - 60g (15%)
                Fat 133g (75%)

                I think it looks great.


                Originally posted by Kymma View Post
                Have any of you read about insulin resistance? Have any of you been tested? I ask because it is a huge help to my mind shift. Once I realized that my eating habits had led to a metabolic issue wherein my body is unable to process glucose and needs to relearn to use fat for energy, then it makes more sense why I go up and down. It also helped me stay on course for over 50 days straight, because I am going to have to reteach my body. I can't give up when my body flounders, not knowing what to do. So I just keep trying to reduce sugars in my system, try to derive as much of my energy from fat/protein, and wait until my body catches on.
                ^^This.
                Primal since March 5, 2012
                SW: 221 | CW: 204 | LPW: 166 | UGW: 140 (80 lbs loss)



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                • Originally posted by Annlee View Post
                  Now I'm losing slowly but steadily with really lousy amounts of exercise. When I do get serious exercise, I bump my protein more towards Phinney & Volek values. When I'm just slogging away on the laptop all day and half the night, I use more the Kwasniewski values.
                  This is a really important point, Annlee. The protein needs to be adjusted based on activity level. I stay closer to P&V levels but I walk everywhere with my dog and do LHTs and sprints when the dog want to chase a squirrel.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by athomeontherange View Post
                    reporting in.. I am down 3 since starting EMF almost a week ago. My fat counts have been @ 40-50g short of what I need. So last night to bring it up a bit I put some sunflower butter, softened butter, a smidge of cocoa powder and a little sweetner together and ate it. ohmygosh.. so good. It helped upper my fat a bit as well. Have not been to the store to get the pork rinds etc. I am finding it difficult to stay in my protein range. I always go over. what is worse? Over on protein or too little fat?
                    Nail the protein and carbs (try not to go over) and use fat as the up and down. If you eat too many protein and carbs, then add more fat, so that your macro %s are right, but you are over on total calories, you'll either maintain (not necessarily a bad thing while figuring out the right carb and protein grams) or gain. I think this was PaleoBird's underlying premise - eat more fat, but you still have to watch overall intake.

                    Originally posted by tomi View Post
                    okay -- instead of waiting until friday to step on the scales, I did it today. I've gained a pound. And I am not at all suprised cuz since starting this higher fat experiment I have been bloated through my mid-section to the point of being uncomfortable. Especially at night - its causing me to not sleep well due to the pressure and discomfort. I wake up in pain.

                    I know I'm slightly shy on fats, and slightly over on proteins. My averages over the 6 days are 64% fat, 25% protein, 11% carbs. I've had no alcohol and no sugar over these 6 days. I've walked a total of 6 miles over these 6 days as well. If I figure all the numbers I should have lost at the very least 1 pound. Instead I have gained a pound.

                    So - how long would you go to see if this way of eating is going to work for your particular body? I'm ready to throw in the towel and go back to just low carbing it. I think my body is especially efficient at storing fat instead of burning it! Obviously my carbs are low enough that I'm not relying on those for fuel............ I wonder what would happen if I went ZERO carbs for a week?

                    I'm frustrated. I wanted to be under 180 by Jan. 1 ............... here it is the 7th and I'm still 183.4. I need to get back to LOSING! This stagnation is making me so angry! I'm really thinking this HF method is not working for me. Unless I'm just not high enough fat and low enough protein and carb. But, then why am so bloated and feeling gross???

                    HELP!!!
                    I agree - give it a month, but maybe ease into things. Doesn't sound like you've increased your overall intake. Is some fat easier to digest? I know coconut oil is hard for me. Too many nuts, well... There is hope, though - I had my gallbladder out and can now tolerate plenty well

                    How many calories, how many grams of fat, protein, carbs [know that this is an imperfect system]? I can tell you, that even 10 g of protein greatly impact things on the scale for me. Weird, that's all I can say

                    Originally posted by Ayla2010 View Post
                    OK so first week lost 1.6 kg (3.5 lbs) and 3 cm (just over an inch) off my waist.
                    I know its not terrible, but had a moment of disappointment, but its all good, will keep going and I will get there
                    AWESOME loss. I'd love to lose that in a week

                    Originally posted by geostump View Post
                    After reading some posts in this thread, I have come to a conclusion. Seems like most of us are looking for a fast fat loss program and I hate to be the bearer of bad news, it ain't gonna be fast no matter what you do. You can't expect to drop months or even years of bad habits in a few weeks. You've got to retrain your body and your mind as to what your body needs for fuel and how to burn it. I think if we can all agree to give this a month to see how things move and not drop out of the program, then we're all at least giving it a fair shake. After checking my macros on MFP, this is the first day that I am finding I have the macros pretty much dead on. Give it time ladies. Rome wasn't built overnight and we can't expect ourselves to rebuild our Rome overnight as well.
                    Thank you, thank you. I need this reminder.

                    Originally posted by honeybuns View Post
                    I have found that the type of fat makes a difference in how you feel. Maybe Tomi's bloating could be from one of the fats. I know that when I eat too many almonds I bloat horribly. No more chomping down for me. That was NOT comfortable.
                    +1

                    Originally posted by Ayla2010 View Post
                    Opps sorry, here you go

                    Have I got this right?
                    Is this OK? Aiming for 65 kg for now. I am 107.4 kg, and 158 cm tall.
                    Calories - 1600
                    Carbohydrates - 40g (10%)
                    Protein - 60g (15%)
                    Fat 133g (75%)

                    Do I need to change anything?
                    Protein - 58.5 to 71.5 (Depending on your activity, may need to start at the lower range)
                    Carbs - 32.5 (upper end)
                    Fat - 130 g
                    Calories between 1534 and 1586
                    [Which is a long way of saying you're pretty much on it]
                    -- Ruth

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by RMS123 View Post
                      Nail the protein and carbs (try not to go over) and use fat as the up and down. Right. Exactly.

                      If you eat too many protein and carbs, then add more fat, so that your macro %s are right. Um, No. If you are over, do better tomorrow but still hold the line on the calories for the day. You can't "make up" for excess carbs and protein by eating some more fat.

                      but you are over on total calories, you'll either maintain (not necessarily a bad thing while figuring out the right carb and protein grams) or gain. I think this was PaleoBird's underlying premise - eat more fat, but you still have to watch overall intake. THIS
                      Robin

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                      • Ruth I lowered my goals a bit:
                        1,200 calories
                        Carbs - 30 g
                        Fat - 93 g
                        Protein - 60 g

                        Will see how I go.

                        Comment


                        • NZGwanma I have a full grown male nubian goat as a pet. He is as big as a great dane, and lives in his own shed.

                          Pebbles - fantastic. Aren't they a hoot - ecept when ring barking the trees etc.......
                          Can you post a pickie ???? please.........
                          "never let the truth get in the way of a good story "

                          ...small steps....

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                          • Originally posted by Paleobird View Post
                            Robin
                            Thanks for correcting, Robin! Now tha I'm rereading, not sure what I was thinking...i blame it on holding a dog with her head in a cone while typing. Not good to have mis-information out there.
                            -- Ruth

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by NZ primal Gwamma View Post
                              NZGwanma I have a full grown male nubian goat as a pet. He is as big as a great dane, and lives in his own shed.

                              Pebbles - fantastic. Aren't they a hoot - ecept when ring barking the trees etc.......
                              Can you post a pickie ???? please.........
                              Page 222 post #2215 in my journal
                              Primal since 9/24/2010
                              "Our greatest foes, and whom we must chiefly combat, are within." Miguel de Cervantes

                              Created by MyFitnessPal.com - Free Weight Loss Tools
                              MFP username: MDAPebbles67

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Ayla2010 View Post
                                Ruth I lowered my goals a bit:
                                1,200 calories
                                Carbs - 30 g
                                Fat - 93 g
                                Protein - 60 g

                                Will see how I go.
                                Goals look good and doable in a small eating window if that is what you choose
                                Primal since 9/24/2010
                                "Our greatest foes, and whom we must chiefly combat, are within." Miguel de Cervantes

                                Created by MyFitnessPal.com - Free Weight Loss Tools
                                MFP username: MDAPebbles67

                                Comment

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