Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Paleo triathlete wanting to try ketogenic diet - a few questions

Collapse
X
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Paleo triathlete wanting to try ketogenic diet - a few questions

    Hello,
    So I've been eating pretty close to paleo for a few years now. I have no problem not eating grains and eating plenty of fats. I do eat lots of fruits and vegetables. I would say my macro split is probably around 1/3 protein, 1/3 carbs, 1/3 fats.

    I'm wanting to get into a ketogenic diet. Mainly, due to the anti-cancer benefits as my family has a strong history of prostrate cancer. But I have a few questions. Most revolve around ketosis and triathlons.

    I know I have to go ultra-low carb to get adapted into using ketone bodies for a few weeks. No problem. However, from reading research and info from other paleo/low carb endurance athletes, I would be wasting potential if I didn't use carbs during long workouts and races. So here are my questions:

    1) If I get into a ketone adapted phase and use certain carbs and fats for fuels during races, does this take me out of ketosis at all? Is there any research showing a certain carb threshold that allows you to stay in ketosis?

    2) If I'm at a suboptimal ketogenic stage, is it even worth it to go through the adaptation phase? I don't want to go through a few weeks of feeling like hell unless it's worth it. Should I just stay with a paleo diet?

    3) Best carb source for endurance activities? I know there's a lot of info out there on this and I haven't done enough research but I thought I would add this questions as well. I've been looking at superstarch and palitinose.

    Thanks guys and sorry for the dumb newbie questions!

  • #2
    First, why do you think that ketosis has anti-cancer benefits?

    Second, check out Lyle Mcdonald for all things ketosis. Also Anthony Colpo knows quite a bit, here was a recent article he wrote on the subject.

    Timothy Olson: Another Low-Carb Athlete That Never Was? AnthonyColpo

    Im thinking you would crash pretty hard doing a triathlon without any carb sources. As for the rest, i dont know.

    Comment


    • #3
      If you want to be a low carb endurance athlete, you really should read Amazon.com: The Art and Science of Low Carbohydrate Performance (9780983490715): Jeff S. Volek, Stephen D. Phinney: Books. It's packed with data, based on real human trials and experiences (not furry little critters).

      1) Their research indicates that a "carb up" will take you out of ketosis, and it takes ~2 weeks to get back in. The body doesn't start making ketones until the extra glucose has been out of the system for a while.

      2) See their research on cyclists and how their performance dramatically improved after the adaptation period.

      3) Peter Attia recommends Superstarch - Sports Nutrition Archives The Eating Academy | Peter Attia, M.D. The Eating Academy | Peter Attia, M.D. - but I have no experience with that (and still have plenty of lard to consume).

      Everybody starts out a noob - so don't sweat it.

      Comment


      • #4
        Zach,
        Well, I know ketogenic diet in rats has shown some promising results for stopping or shrinking tumor growth in rats. Obviously, such a diet is hard to research in humans but I know there's some great case studies of people fighting cancer with ketogenic diets. I've also read Colpo's stuff, so I do realize the disadvantages if I wanted to try low carb during a race (which I do not!)

        Annlee,
        I'm actually reading Phinney and Volek's first book. Will get that one next! Good to know it addresses some of my questions. I've read their cycling research, and it isn't as convincing as I want it to be! I wish there was more but obviously research is expensive.

        Thanks for the help guys!

        Comment


        • #5
          Given that you are already at a 3 way macro split, I doubt that you would have much in the way of a carb flu transitional period if you want to dip deeper into ketosis. The people who report the wicked symptoms are usually the serious carb and junk food fiends.

          I second the recommendation of Phinney & Volek's second book. The first one is a good general primer but the second focuses specifically on the athletic performance issues you are interested in.

          Zach is a troll who thinks candy and soda are health foods and, for some weird reason, feels the need to hang around here and agitate.

          I use a ketogenic diet to keep my epilepsy under control on a lower dose of meds (working toward getting off them entirely). I am also a five year cancer survivor who would rather not "go there" again. You are very right about ketosis being beneficial.
          I wish you well. Keep us posted on your results.
          Last edited by Paleobird; 12-19-2012, 10:01 PM.

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by Paleobird View Post
            Given that you are already at a 3 way macro split, I doubt that you would have much in the way of a carb flu transitional period if you want to dip deeper into ketosis. The people who report the wicked symptoms are usually the serious carb and junk food fiends.

            I second the recommendation of Phinney & Volek's second book. The first one is a good general primer but the second focuses specifically on the athletic performance issues you are interested in.

            Zach is a troll who thinks candy and soda are health foods and, for some weird reason, feels the need to hang around here and agitate.

            I wish you well. Keep us posted on your results.
            How was my post in any way trolling? I gave him advice and pointed him to smart people. We all know that 99% of endurance athletes fuel with carbohydrate, its no secret.

            I think its you with the agenda. You are one of the last people on here recommending a VLC or ketogenic diet. Maybe the lack of carbs is getting you a little crazy? Can Low-Carb Diets Make You Crazy? AnthonyColpo

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by Zach View Post
              How was my post in any way trolling? I gave him advice and pointed him to smart people. We all know that 99% of endurance athletes fuel with carbohydrate, its no secret.

              I think its you with the agenda. You are one of the last people on here recommending a VLC or ketogenic diet. Maybe the lack of carbs is getting you a little crazy? Can Low-Carb Diets Make You Crazy? AnthonyColpo
              Take a breath, Zach.
              First, I eat a ketogenic diet for my reasons and it works for me. I have never pushed that as an agenda on anyone. The OP was not talking about racing without carbs, just the train low, race high strategy that is used by a lot of elite athletes. The OP has already made the decision to try ketosis for his/her own reasons the main one being a strong family history of cancer.

              Second, there are a lot of people on this forum who eat LC or VLC (fluid definitions at best). They have been shouted down lately by some really vehement carb proponents and many just got tired of the constant carb wars. There is room enough under the Primal tent for a wide range of macro ratios. There is no room however for people like you who proudly profess to eat processed sugary junk and then presume to give advice on being Primal

              Third, Anthony Colpo is a braying jackass. "Nuff said.

              Comment


              • #8
                I think what some folks forget is that sometimes you just have to eat according to what feels good to you. We are all individuals each with our own set of unique needs. For some of us Keto has made the difference between taking meds (Paleobird, you've found a way that works and I say "right on" to that!) and some of us feel terrible on keto.

                Remy, I would encourage you to try it if you like, however be honest with how your body is responding. If you start to have poor quality sleep, your body aches, you're stress levels rise and you feel terrible (past the initial breaking in phase), stop. No questions asked.

                For myself, if I go less than 50g/carbs per day I experience night eating syndrome (its a strange thing to wake up with your head in the fridge) and my body HURTS, stress levels rise. I especially notice this in the summer months when I'm logging a lot of running miles on the trails.
                Follow your body, learn to listen, it will tell you what is right.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Zach View Post
                  Second, check out Lyle Mcdonald for all things ketosis. Also Anthony Colpo knows quite a bit, here was a recent article he wrote on the subject.
                  Seems a bit trollish....you point a triathlete asking how to improve with ketosis to a couple of anti-low carb body builders??? Lyle isn't all bad, but by no means is he any sort of final word especially on ketosis. Colpo....well he's just an ass-hat. Seriously I don't know how people can make it through a paragraph of his garbage.

                  Anyway, there are people out there doing what OP is talking about. I think OP might be interested in this site...

                  The interplay of exercise and ketosis

                  Then since OP asked about using other fuel at race, he talks about something he calls superstarch here:

                  http://eatingacademy.com/sports-and-...rstarch-part-i


                  I am not a triathlete so I can't give any specifics from my own experience, but there are resources like those listed above.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Zach View Post
                    First, why do you think that ketosis has anti-cancer benefits?
                    Probably because cancer utilizes sugar as a fuel source. Trials show keto-diets stop the growth of some brain cancers (haven't tested them all individually yet). I personally know of a trial on advanced thymus cancer that is still going on with 16 patients with very good result. This trial is not ketogenic though...its testing on blocking insulin so that the tumors can't take up their food supply. So far (over a year in) all 16 have seen their tumors stop growth and one has seen it reduce in size. Keto is a low insulin/low glucose environment.

                    Treating a disease is not the same as preventing, but in this context seems rational to think that cancer would have a harder time getting a foothold in an organism where insulin and glucose are kept in check.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Wow, thanks everybody! Never expected to get so many replies so quick. I understand there are pro's and con's to any dietary approach. I think I may give a very low carb diet a trial run in January. My first race won't be until May so I have plenty of time to tweak things. I appreciate all the links and resources and I'll definitely check them out. I also like reading the anti-low carb "gurus", I like to hear arguments from both sides whenever I'm contemplating something.

                      Thanks again!

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Neckhammer View Post
                        Probably because cancer utilizes sugar as a fuel source.
                        Dumbest thing I've ever read, and you alone have had some doozies. No idea why anyone takes you serious at all. It's obvious your brain is being cut-off from severe lack of glucose.

                        Heard of dichloroacetate? It works by reactivating the enzymes that oxidize pyruvic acid(oxidation of sugar). They're defective in cancer cells.
                        Make America Great Again

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Derpamix View Post
                          Dumbest thing I've ever read, and you alone have had some doozies. No idea why anyone takes you serious at all. It's obvious your brain is being cut-off from severe lack of glucose.

                          Heard of dichloroacetate? It works by reactivating the enzymes that oxidize pyruvic acid(oxidation of sugar). They're defective in cancer cells.
                          ^There is a reason derrrrrpy is on my ignore list...I've had the pleasure of not having to read her drivel for some time.

                          Anyhow I was trying to find a link for OP....here is one that explains things a bit http://articles.mercola.com/sites/ar...on-cancer.aspx

                          So what are cancer cells preferred method of energy metabolism? Is it glycoloysis? And is glycolysis dependant on the availability of sugar?

                          "In oncology, the Warburg effect is the observation that most cancer cells predominantly produce energy by a high rate of glycolysis followed by lactic acid fermentation in the cytosol, rather than by a comparatively low rate of glycolysis followed by oxidation of pyruvate in mitochondria as in most normal cells.[1][2] The latter process is aerobic (uses oxygen). Malignant, rapidly growing tumor cells typically have glycolytic rates up to 200 times higher than those of their normal tissues of origin; this occurs even if oxygen is plentiful.

                          Otto Warburg postulated this change in metabolism is the fundamental cause of cancer,[3] a claim now known as the Warburg hypothesis. Today, mutations in oncogenes and tumor suppressor genes are known to be responsible for malignant transformation;.[4][5]"

                          http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glycolysis

                          Anyhow like I said low insulin....part of keto is important as well seeing how type II diabetics have higher rates of cancers likely due to hyperinsulinemia as well.
                          Last edited by Neckhammer; 12-20-2012, 11:06 AM.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            How cancer feeds on sugar (and other big reasons to avoid refined sweets)
                            NutritionCancer.com
                            Cancer Loves Sugar
                            How Cancer Feeds On Sugar | ISKCON News
                            Does Sugar Feed Cancer?
                            More Evidence Sugar Feeds Cancer

                            Derpy Dearest, you're just flat out wrong on this one. But then I could be insulting and say that it is all that Coke, sugar sweetened milk and OJ, plus 30 cups of coffee with copious amounts of sugar that is addling your thought processes.

                            Yeah, you be insulting to my bro NH, I'll insult you back.

                            To the OP, consider the source of your advice. Are candy and Coke really health foods? Is someone who says they are a credible source of info?

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Hi, NH! Crosspost!

                              Comment

                              Working...
                              X