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  • So if I make food with plantain flour and then cool it and eat it, it will have resistant starch? I am crazy sensitive to nightshades and corn and don't want starches from either of those sources.
    Using low lectin/nightshade free primal to control autoimmune arthritis. (And lost 50 lbs along the way )

    http://www.krispin.com/lectin.html

    Comment


    • I would make the food, cool it, and then add the plantain flour, the way thickener is normally added to gravy after cooking, so as to minimize heating and thus maximize the RS. If you cook the plantain flour itself, you will greatly reduce the RS.

      Originally posted by otzi View Post
      There are very few foods you can eat hot that have RS in them. Of the standard, recognizable, foods, green bananas stand out in terms of RS. A super-duper green, too-hard-too-peel, inedible banana should have close to 30g. When it ripens to where you can just peel it, it will have about 15g, when mostly yellow, 2-3g.
      Is this for the Cavendish banana? If so, what are the figures for plantain bananas?

      I learned in the past from experience that the tastiest dried foods involve the least heat possible, with air-drying being best. I dry foods on a dehydrator drying rack in the fridge. Thus, they are cooled while drying, rather than heated, as in a dehydrator machine, which I never use any more (even at the lowest setting, the tastiness of the foods is reduced). I found that the longer I air-dry plantain slices, the slightly tastier they become. I find thoroughly dried plantain slices topped with raw cheese to be pretty enjoyable, and more filling than with ordinary grain crackers that I ate in years past.

      Otzi, raw potatoes contain the steroidal glycoalkaloids alpha-chaconine and alpha-solanine and the alkaloid solanidine, which can reportedly be allergenic for some and toxic in excessive amounts. What are your thoughts on these? How much does drying reduce them? I noticed that a small amount of fresh peeled raw potato caused a burning sensation on my tongue. There are even reports of a small number of people dying from excessive consumption of raw potato. Tolerances vary, and my grandfather never reported any discomfort from eating a few slices of raw potato now and then.

      Raw plantains are reportedly nontoxic:
      Banana and plantain

      Banana and plantain do not contain significant levels of any toxic principles. They do contain high levels of serotonin, dopamine and other biogenic amines. Dopamine is responsible for the enzymic browning of sliced banana. Serotonin intake at high levels from plantain has been implicated in the aetiology of endomyocardial fibrosis (EMF) (Foy and Parratt, 1960). However, Ojo (1969) has shown that serotonine is rapidly removed from the circulating plasma and so does not contribute to elevated levels of biogenic amines in healthy Nigerians. It has been confirmed by Shaper (1967) that there is insufficient evidence for regarding its level in plantain as a factor in the aetiology of EMF.

      Toxic substances and antinutritional factors
      http://www.fao.org/docrep/t0207e/t0207e08.htm
      As you know, fufu is another traditional staple food that likely contains RS. It can be made using yams, cassava, cocoyam (taro) or plantains, or a mixture. Interestingly, it is traditionally swallowed, rather than chewed, and chewing "is discouraged." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fufu Since RS doesn't digest in the mouth or stomach, this makes some sense.
      Last edited by Paleophil; 08-17-2013, 08:41 AM.
      Originally posted by tatertot
      Finding a diet you can tolerate is not the same as fixing what's wrong.
      "our ancestors obtained resistant starch and other fermentable fibers by eating a diversity of wild plant foods, bulbs, corms, tubers, cattails, cactuses, and medicinal barks..." -Mark Sisson

      "I've long ago tossed the idea that a particular macro ratio is poison, and am now starting to think that the EM2…is defined less by novel NADS…and more by the gut microbiome and environmental pseudocommensals ..." -Kurt Harris, MD

      Comment


      • Jammies - The plantain flour (AKA green banana flour) has to be ingested in it's raw, uncooked state. The only use I have found is cookie dough, which I love. If you use it in baking--no RS (or minimal, anyway).

        Paleophil - Everything I have read says that most of the toxic substances in a potato are found in the skin and any flesh that has turned green or contains sprouting eyes. I always recommend to wash, peel, and remove any discolored parts. I would never recommend eating much more than a few slices here and there, though.

        This article says that the toxic substances aren't removed with cooking and that frying actually concentrates the toxins!

        Levels of available glycoalkaloids vary in different types of potatoes, in different parts of the plant, being highest within 1.5 mm of peel and with the method of food preparation. Freshly dug potato tubers may contain between 9 and 400 mg/kg of chaconine and solanine (6,28). In general chaconine and solanine occur in potatoes in a 1:1 mixture. Glycoalkaloids available to humans via oral intake will be between 0.075 and 0.15 (boiled peeled potatoes), 0.3 and 0.4 (baked jacket potato), 0.4 and 2.5 (potato chips), and 2.0 and 5.1 (fried potato skins) mg/kg body mass per day (6).

        While consumption of potatoes per capita has not changed, what has changed in recent years is the way in which potatoes are prepared for consumption. Specifically, mechanical slicing and frying of potatoes is more prevalent in developed countries, where, coincidentally, the prevalence of IBD is highest. Mechanical damage to potato tissue increases the concentration of glycoalkaloids available for consumption. In addition, frying potatoes at high temperatures does not inactivate but instead serves to preserve and concentrate glycoalkaloids within the potato, leaving them available for ingestion and delivery to the intestine. In this way the exposure of the small and large intestine to glycoalkaloids from mechanically prepared and commercially fried potatoes exceeds the exposure from an equivalent intake of potatoes boiled in water. Indeed, on boiling peeled potatoes in tap water (i.e., dilute acid), glycoalkaloids are readily hydrolyzed, yielding sugars and solanidine, both completely inactive (5). Potato glycoalkaloids adversely affect intestinal permeability and aggravate inflammatory bowel disease - Patel - 2006 - Inflammatory Bowel Diseases - Wiley Online Library
        From my readings, eating raw or cooked really makes no difference, but what could make the most difference is not eating french fries and potato chips--or worse yet, fried potato skins!

        I think the same substances that are toxic in potatoes are also found in tomatoes and green peppers--both widely consumed raw.

        As to the banana RS content, from what I can tell, a super-green, still hard Cavendish banana is exactly the same as a plantain at the same stage. Taste-wise, I can testify they are the same! It does stand to reason that they would all be similar in their green stage...they are all cultivars of species known as Musa. Bright yellow bananas in a supermarket are more an engineering feat and a wonder of modern marketing--read up on how it's done and you may never want a bright yellow banana again! I've also heard that most unriped fruit, like apples and pears, contain RS but have yet to confirm this and don't intend to experiment.
        Last edited by otzi; 08-17-2013, 10:12 AM.

        Comment


        • Paleophil, I have eaten raw potatoes all my life (I'm 56). I have never had a problem and I eat more than a few slices at a time. I have never eaten raw, unpeeled ones.

          Comment


          • Apparently the purpose of this study was to find a way to get more fiber into the diets of people who eat SAD. They say that starches that resist digestion in the small intestine can provide both soluble and insoluble fiber to the colon.

            That part is probably true. So they may intend to make a chemical compound that can be added to processed foods to increase fiber content.

            But as a PB eater, I'm far happier with whole foods, getting plenty of fiber from green leafy veggies and other low glycemic load veggies. The acid needed for his conversion can as easily come from fermented veggies.

            In general mainline medicine uses the argument that people refuse to eat a healthy diet of whole foods and that's why PB can't work. They believe this is true with all their hearts. They also want to support the various food and pharma industries.
            "When the search for truth is confused with political advocacy, the pursuit of knowledge is reduced to the quest for power." - Alston Chase

            Comment


            • I've read up a bit on this resistant starch topic, also trawling through the posts on Free The Animal. I've been doing about 4 table spoons of potato starch in my kefir a day for the past 4 days. My experience is: increased satiation, which is a plus. No difference in sleep so far, though I need to give it some more time. Big negative so far: massive amounts of gas. It's unbelievable! R. Nikoley said somewhere that things improved for him later on but also that he believes it is natural. I am not so convinced about the latter claim, as the current amount of fartage going on in my body surely can't be a good thing? I think I'll continue for a week or so and it would be interesting to see if things settle down a bit.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by FlyingPig View Post
                I've read up a bit on this resistant starch topic, also trawling through the posts on Free The Animal. I've been doing about 4 table spoons of potato starch in my kefir a day for the past 4 days. My experience is: increased satiation, which is a plus. No difference in sleep so far, though I need to give it some more time. Big negative so far: massive amounts of gas. It's unbelievable! R. Nikoley said somewhere that things improved for him later on but also that he believes it is natural. I am not so convinced about the latter claim, as the current amount of fartage going on in my body surely can't be a good thing? I think I'll continue for a week or so and it would be interesting to see if things settle down a bit.
                Going from zero to 4TBS is likely overloading your system. Even 1TBS is more RS that the average person gets in a day! Drop it to 1TBS for a month or so, then increase if you want. It should take 2-3 weeks for the beneficial bacteria to out-pace the bad.

                What is going on, I believe, there are three main types of bacteria we are concerned with: Bifido, Lacto and Entero. The first two are generally considered the probiotic types and the Entero are considered harmful. The e in e.coli, stands for entero.

                There are thousands of strains of each and many others living in your colon as well. Eating large amounts of RS feeds everything if you don't have enough bifido to consume it first. The most beneficial types of bifido feed preferentially on RS. The trouble is, most people don't have enough of them to eat all the RS they consume if taking large doses of potato starch. Start out slowly, the bifido will grow and crowd out the other bacteria and make a colon suitable in PH and nutrients for the other beneficial bacteria to thrive.

                Once you get your guts right, you will find more farts than before, but generally in the range of 15-30 per day...sounds excessive, but it is normal. 30-50+ per day is excessive. 0-15 per day shows lack of fermentation. It's an interesting thing to study up on, lots written about it--little is ever said.

                Another interesting tidbit is that farts produced in a healthy gut do not smell bad. Beneficial bacteria eating fiber and RS produce oxygen, carbon dioxide, hydrogen. Some strains of harmful bacteria produce methane.

                So, to recap:
                Farting is good when it is under about 30 per day, non-toxic, doesn't cause pain or bloating, and doesn't cause incontinence.

                Farting is bad when it is non-stop, foul-smelling, leaves skid marks, and hurts.
                Last edited by otzi; 08-18-2013, 10:18 AM.

                Comment


                • Originally posted by otzi View Post
                  This article says that the toxic substances aren't removed with cooking and that frying actually concentrates the toxins!
                  But that article compares various forms of cooked potatoes, not raw. This and other sources indicate that cooking reduces glycoalkaloid content:

                  "Unpeeled potatoes 20.00
                  Potatoes after peeling 13.51
                  Potatoes after blanching 11.00
                  Potatoes after steaming and cooling 8.74
                  Pre-drying potatoes 7.62
                  Dehydrated potatoes 6.55

                  Total glycoalkaloid "decreased most after peeling (30 %), blanching (28 %) and pre-drying (25 %)."
                  (Changes in the Levels of Glycoalkaloids and Nitrates After the Dehydration of Cooked Potatoes,
                  http://link.springer.com/content/pdf...012-9273-0.pdf)

                  That said, I am nonetheless experimenting with raw potato slices.

                  Since I rarely see Cavendish bananas sold in a deep green state and since plantains are cheaper in my markets (when compared on an equal footing of conventional vs. conventional or organic vs. organic) and taste a little better to me, I'll continue buying plantains.

                  Originally posted by marcadav View Post
                  Paleophil, I have eaten raw potatoes all my life (I'm 56). I have never had a problem and I eat more than a few slices at a time. I have never eaten raw, unpeeled ones.
                  Interesting. How much do you eat and how often? Did their taste improve the longer you ate them? Do you add anything, like salt, to them?

                  Originally posted by Cryptocode View Post
                  But as a PB eater, I'm far happier with whole foods, getting plenty of fiber from green leafy veggies and other low glycemic load veggies. The acid needed for his conversion can as easily come from fermented veggies.
                  Are you implying that anyone who includes some potatoes, potato starch, green plantains/bananas, true yams, or other foods containing RS in their diet and benefits from it is not eating a PB diet? If so, why?


                  What do folks make of this suggesting that the type 1 physically inaccessible RS found in nuts, seeds, grains and legumes show poorer study results than the type 2 RS in potatoes and plantains:

                  "Whether or not humans are better adapted to certain types of resistant starch remains unexplored, but could account [for] some inconsistent results in studies that used type I resistant starch, mostly found in grains and seeds that would have probably been relatively uncommon in our ancestral diet. These studies have shown poor results and others with promising results are marred by high drop out rates due to unpleasant gastrointestinal side effects (Rinne et al., 2005; de Vrese & Marteau, 2007; Vuksan et al., 2007). Whether some populations would do better on this type of starch versus others would be an interesting investigation, but very few cultures consume large amounts of unmilled seeds and grains." The Human Colon in Evolution: Part 4, The Secrets of Butyrate | Melissa McEwen on food anthropology, economics, and culture

                  Rinne, M. M., Gueimonde, M., Kalliomäki, M., Hoppu, U., Salminen, S. J., & Isolauri, E. (2005). Similar bifidogenic effects of prebiotic-supplemented partially hydrolyzed infant formula and breastfeeding on infant gut microbiota. FEMS immunology and medical microbiology, 43(1), 59-65. doi: 10.1016/j.femsim.2004.07.005.

                  Vrese, M. de, & Marteau, P. R. (2007). Probiotics and Prebiotics: Effects on Diarrhea. J. Nutr., 137(3), 803S-811. Retrieved May 9, 2011, from Probiotics and Prebiotics: Effects on Diarrhea.

                  Vuksan, V., Whitham, D., Sievenpiper, J. L., Jenkins, A. L., Rogovik, A. L., Bazinet, R. P., et al. (2007). Supplementation of conventional therapy with the novel grain Salba (Salvia hispanica L.) improves major and emerging cardiovascular risk factors in type 2 diabetes: results of a randomized controlled trial. Diabetes care, 30(11), 2804-10. doi: 10.2337/dc07-1144.


                  I didn't notice significant farts from unmodified potato starch, just a brief bit of gut rumbling that lasted a few seconds and a single noticeable fart on the first day. I started out with 1 TBS per day. I increased it to 2 TBS within a couple days, then 3 TBS a few days later, then 4. If I eat plantains or raw potato slices, I use less potato starch. I have had no noticeable farts since that initial one, so apparently I have a lack of fermentation, or else they are too minor to be noticed? Yet my blood glucose readings are nonetheless improved, though that could be random coincidence, as I can't afford taking a lot of readings and also don't want to spend a lot of time measuring things.


                  There is some research suggesting that butyrate from colonic fiber fermentation and DHA work "in a coordinated fashion" to trigger mitochondrial-mediated benefits in colonocytes: "Interactive Effects of Fatty Acid and Butyrate-Induced Mitochondrial Ca2ž, Loading and Apoptosis in Colonocytes," http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/1...cncr.26205/pdf

                  Docosahexaenoic Acid and Butyrate Synergistically Induce Colonocyte Apoptosis by Enhancing Mitochondrial Ca2+ Accumulation, 2007, http://cancerres.aacrjournals.org/co...7/11/5561.full
                  Last edited by Paleophil; 08-18-2013, 12:16 PM.
                  Originally posted by tatertot
                  Finding a diet you can tolerate is not the same as fixing what's wrong.
                  "our ancestors obtained resistant starch and other fermentable fibers by eating a diversity of wild plant foods, bulbs, corms, tubers, cattails, cactuses, and medicinal barks..." -Mark Sisson

                  "I've long ago tossed the idea that a particular macro ratio is poison, and am now starting to think that the EM2…is defined less by novel NADS…and more by the gut microbiome and environmental pseudocommensals ..." -Kurt Harris, MD

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Paleophil View Post

                    Interesting. How much do you eat and how often? Did their taste improve the longer you ate them? Do you add anything, like salt, to them?
                    We had potatoes almost every night for dinner when I was a kid. So, if I was around when dinner was being prepped I'm sure I got my hands on some slices/chunks. I eat slices whenever I make a potato dish as an adult.

                    I went several years where potatoes were not a frequent food for me--so raw ones were only eaten if when I made potatoes. I added them back in this year to see if more carbs would help my issues with low T3. I probably eat raw potatoes a couple times a week and can find myself eating almost an entire one raw.

                    I have always liked the taste and texture of raw potatoes and while I will eat them unseasoned, I prefer them with salt and pepper.

                    Comment


                    • Fermented Potatoes - Tocosh aka Togosh

                      “Taro and related tubers are found throughout the tropical world--in Africa, the West Indies and Polynesia. Explorers discovered that the natives ate root vegetables after they had been buried in the ground and fermented for several days to several months.” Sally Fallon, Nourishing Traditions, p. 102

                      “Tocosh (also known as Togosh) is a traditional Quechua food prepared from fermented potato pulp (corn is less common). It is often prepared for celebration events and has a strong odor and flavor. Tocosh can be used as a natural antibiotic because penicillin is produced during the fermentation process.[1] Medicinally it is used for the common cold, gastric ulcers, pneumonia, and altitude sickness among others. The Incas believed it was a gift from Inti for preservation of the body.

                      A pool of water with a current is found or dug on the banks of a stream. The potatoes or corn are then placed in a mesh bag of grass, covered with stones, and left undisturbed for six to twelve months. The current flows through the stones to wash away bacteria during fermentation. Once fermentation has occurred, the tocosh is dried in the sun and stored for future use.” Tocosh - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

                      I increased my RS consumption further today, probably around 6 TBS or 50 grams of RS, and did get some brief mild farting. So if Otzi's right, then that's probably a good sign.
                      Last edited by Paleophil; 08-18-2013, 03:43 PM.
                      Originally posted by tatertot
                      Finding a diet you can tolerate is not the same as fixing what's wrong.
                      "our ancestors obtained resistant starch and other fermentable fibers by eating a diversity of wild plant foods, bulbs, corms, tubers, cattails, cactuses, and medicinal barks..." -Mark Sisson

                      "I've long ago tossed the idea that a particular macro ratio is poison, and am now starting to think that the EM2…is defined less by novel NADS…and more by the gut microbiome and environmental pseudocommensals ..." -Kurt Harris, MD

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Paleophil View Post
                        Are you implying that anyone who includes some potatoes, potato starch, green plantains/bananas, true yams, or other foods containing RS in their diet and benefits from it is not eating a PB diet? If so, why?
                        No, I'm implying, and said, that when the purpose of adding resistant starch to the diet is to add fiber, then it's not necessary in a PB diet. Greens and tubers provide plenty, especially greens. It may be necessary in a SAD diet as commonly eaten.

                        However, previously there have been comments here that resistant starch helps with sleep. If it does, I would consider that a sufficient reason to add it.

                        Thanks for the links, they were quite interesting. I've marked some.
                        "When the search for truth is confused with political advocacy, the pursuit of knowledge is reduced to the quest for power." - Alston Chase

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by otzi View Post
                          Farting is bad when it is non-stop, foul-smelling, leaves skid marks, and hurts.
                          I probably coulda figured that out without researching

                          I am becoming slightly curious about this as a solution for digestive issues though. Are you familiar with the GAPS diet? I'm considering this as a stage beyond the first few stages of SCD for my son. Just working out whats what here. He basically still passes whole grapes and berries without digesting the skins at this point. RS may just cause him more issue. Then again he eats melon and homemade fries (just read your link on that not deactivating things... might have to make sure its cooked low).
                          Last edited by Neckhammer; 08-18-2013, 06:52 PM.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by otzi View Post
                            Jammies - The plantain flour (AKA green banana flour) has to be ingested in it's raw, uncooked state. The only use I have found is cookie dough, which I love. If you use it in baking--no RS (or minimal, anyway).

                            Paleophil - Everything I have read says that most of the toxic substances in a potato are found in the skin and any flesh that has turned green or contains sprouting eyes. I always recommend to wash, peel, and remove any discolored parts. I would never recommend eating much more than a few slices here and there, though.

                            This article says that the toxic substances aren't removed with cooking and that frying actually concentrates the toxins!



                            From my readings, eating raw or cooked really makes no difference, but what could make the most difference is not eating french fries and potato chips--or worse yet, fried potato skins!

                            I think the same substances that are toxic in potatoes are also found in tomatoes and green peppers--both widely consumed raw.

                            As to the banana RS content, from what I can tell, a super-green, still hard Cavendish banana is exactly the same as a plantain at the same stage. Taste-wise, I can testify they are the same! It does stand to reason that they would all be similar in their green stage...they are all cultivars of species known as Musa. Bright yellow bananas in a supermarket are more an engineering feat and a wonder of modern marketing--read up on how it's done and you may never want a bright yellow banana again! I've also heard that most unriped fruit, like apples and pears, contain RS but have yet to confirm this and don't intend to experiment.
                            What's ingredients do you use for cookie dough? I have had 2 pounds of green banana flour in my kitchen for about a month but I couldn't think of anything to do with it that doesn't require cooking.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Forgotmylastusername View Post
                              What's ingredients do you use for cookie dough? I have had 2 pounds of green banana flour in my kitchen for about a month but I couldn't think of anything to do with it that doesn't require cooking.
                              2 cups banana flour
                              1 tsp salt
                              1 cup (2 sticks) softened butter (!)
                              1 tsp vanilla
                              2 eggs
                              Sweetener of choice to taste...I use molasses

                              Mix all together, whip eggs and add last. Also add nuts, coconut, whatever.

                              The 2 cups (32TBS) of plantain flour have approximately 160g RS (5g per TBS). If you divide the mixture into 32 equal size balls, you know the amount of RS you are eating.

                              Don't eat it all at once!

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by otzi View Post
                                2 cups banana flour
                                1 tsp salt
                                1 cup (2 sticks) softened butter (!)
                                1 tsp vanilla
                                2 eggs
                                Sweetener of choice to taste...I use molasses

                                Mix all together, whip eggs and add last. Also add nuts, coconut, whatever.

                                The 2 cups (32TBS) of plantain flour have approximately 160g RS (5g per TBS). If you divide the mixture into 32 equal size balls, you know the amount of RS you are eating.

                                Don't eat it all at once!
                                Cool. I just made some an hour ago with coconut milk instead of butter and I used molasses and chopped dates for sweetener. I'm really surprised at how full I am. I only a small amount but now I don't even feel like dinner. This will be handy because I need something easy and filling to eat before work and I haven't really got time to prepare anything.

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