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  • Originally posted by Paleophil View Post
    How this reads to me is that RS doesn't itself provide a steady supply of glucose to the brain through the night. Instead, other carbs must be consumed with the RS and the RS just slows the delivery of the glucose to the brain, stretching it through the night, so one doesn't burn through it quickly and wake up at 3AM when it's gone, with the brain signaling that it's time to go gather some more food.

    Superstarch is not the same thing as RS, because SS apparently also contains more easily-digestible starch (your guess was 50/50). Thus, RS alone is not an alternative to SS unless you also add some easily-digestible starch (such as mixing some unmodified potato starch in a sports drink, fruit juice or honey).

    Do I have that right?
    We are on the same page. The most potent RS sources we have ID'd (potato/tapioca starch) contain at most 80% RS, the other 20% must be easily digestible starch. If that was all you ate for carbs, then it would not be similar to SuperStarch, but I think if you add some potato starch to a fruit smoothie or the sour cream on your potato, or along with any medium carb intake, then it acts like a buffer for the release of the glucose--that seems to be the theory anyway, and I can see it pretty well by checking my pp BG after a plain potato or a potato+potato starch. Big difference.

    I was being a bit facetious when I said it was a direct replacement for SuperStarch, I actually think potato starch is a better choice.

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    • Originally posted by Paleophil View Post
      LC diet book authors Volek and Phinney advocate some foods rich in resistant starch (and also ordinary starch):

      "Once keto-adapted, depending on your metabolism and goals, you may be able to incorporate slow release sources of carbohydrate such as root vegetables, legumes, or UCAN's SuperStarchTM." (The Art and Science of Low Carbohydrate Performance: A Revolutionary Program to Extend Your Physical and Mental Performance Envelope, Chapter 6 - Carbohydrate, by Jeff S. Volek, Stephen D. Phinney)
      That's funny! If you ask Attia, their unpaid spokesman, he will tell you SuperStarch is not resistant starch. Of course it is! UCan just doesn't want people to figure out they are paying $2 for 2 cents worth of Hi-Maize.

      Did you know there is a whole Resistant Starch Diet out there? It's called the Skinny Carbs Diet. The Skinny Carbs Diet - Diet Review

      The Skinny Carbs Diet is a cookbook that allows you to eat pasta and potatoes as well as use the power of resistant starch to fight fat and beat cravings. The book is written by David Feder and the editors of Prevention Magazine. This book will be released on September 14, 2010 and focuses on the benefits of resistant starch for health benefits and to help you lose weight. Some of the best foods for resistant starch include bananas, potatoes, bread and pasta. The cookbook includes over 150 recipes that include those special resistant starch ingredients. Some of the different categories of recipes include breakfasts, lunch, soups sandwiches, side dishes, vegetarian entrees, desserts and salads. This cookbook also provides you with six weeks’ worth of menus with food items taken directly from the cookbook. This isn’t just a cookbook as it explains how the diet works, gives a thorough background to what resistant starch is and gives detailed instructions on how to prepare your foods.

      DIET and NUTRITION This diet program focuses on using the resistant starch that comes in certain carbohydrate rich foods to benefit your health. You can actually lose weight while consuming carbs contrary to information that has previously been given. There are over 150 recipes included in this cookbook to give lots of variety to your diet. The book also includes a six week supply of menus using recipes that are included in the book.
      I read some of their recipes and menus--very grain and legume heavy.. No mention of just going straight for potato or tapioca starch.

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      • Your quote of Peter at hyperlipid and reference to SCFA has me interested again. Do you/can you reconcile his approach of attaining SCFA from his food rather than feeding little buggers in the gut to get it second hand? Just curious. I know this has been almost done to death, but since you seem to read him I was just curious.

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        • Originally posted by Neckhammer View Post
          Your quote of Peter at hyperlipid and reference to SCFA has me interested again. Do you/can you reconcile his approach of attaining SCFA from his food rather than feeding little buggers in the gut to get it second hand? Just curious. I know this has been almost done to death, but since you seem to read him I was just curious.
          I'd be interested in this conversation as well. I don't want to take a supplement, I want food sources.
          Using low lectin/nightshade free primal to control autoimmune arthritis. (And lost 50 lbs along the way )

          http://www.krispin.com/lectin.html

          Comment


          • Originally posted by jammies View Post
            I'd be interested in this conversation as well. I don't want to take a supplement, I want food sources.
            I have it on good authority that Peter D. is looking into the mechanisms behind RS, SCFA, glucose control, and NEFA interactions. Hopefully he will blog on it soon.

            I am leaning towards the idea that if one is eating a high fat, very low carb diet, then gut fermentation of carb fractions is not that important. However, if one is eating a carb-containing omnivore diet, then fermentable fiber should be a huge consideration.

            As omnivores, we are adapted to eat a wide variety of foods. When eating carbs/starches/sugars in a platform that only includes minimal fermentable carbohydrates, I feel we are doing ourselves a grave disservice.

            Jammies - the only food sources that don't require eating way more food than you are used to, ie. 2-3 potatoes or 3-4 cups of cold rice per day, are beans and bananas. 1/2 cup of lentils, peas, or legumes has the same RS as 1 large, cold potato (approx 5g). A greenish banana, in it's edibility phase would also contain about 5g. In order to get the oftentimes recommended 20g of RS per day, one needs to consume a steady supply of potatoes, beans, bananas, and rice. Some can pull this off, I have a hard time. I use potato starch and tapioca starch, both have approx 7.5g per TBS. It incorporates well into cold beverages or liquid foods like yogurt, sour cream, ice cream, etc... I don't really consider it a supplement per se, as I could make these items at home with a bit of time and minimal equipment.

            I have come to believe that a person eating carbs daily needs about 40g of fermentable fiber, with RS being 1/2 - 3/4 of this. The rest should come from other plant fibers easily found on Primal Blueprint. On days I don't hit my real-food RS target, I make up with raw starch.

            Other real-food options include raw potato (5g per 1/2" slice), plantains (about 35g each)--not bad when salted and dried, plantain flour in cold concoctions, and eating nuts provides a bit more, but at a heavy calorie toll (5-10g/cup).
            Last edited by otzi; 08-15-2013, 09:44 PM.

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            • Originally posted by otzi View Post
              We are on the same page. The most potent RS sources we have ID'd (potato/tapioca starch) contain at most 80% RS, the other 20% must be easily digestible starch.
              Ah, that could explain the slightly sweet taste I get from potato starch.

              If that was all you ate for carbs, then it would not be similar to SuperStarch, but I think if you add some potato starch to a fruit smoothie or the sour cream on your potato, or along with any medium carb intake, then it acts like a buffer for the release of the glucose--that seems to be the theory anyway, and I can see it pretty well by checking my pp BG after a plain potato or a potato+potato starch. Big difference.
              That sounds like it can act quickly. Some sources say it takes longer to work, such as overnight, because it has to reach the colon. Are there earlier effects too? Maybe the body senses the resistant starch before it reaches the colon and that signals some processes?

              I was being a bit facetious when I said it was a direct replacement for SuperStarch, I actually think potato starch is a better choice.
              I think you mean potato starch plus carbs.

              Yes, I came across the Skinny Carbs Diet in my searches.

              I am leaning towards the idea that if one is eating a high fat, very low carb diet, then gut fermentation of carb fractions is not that important. However, if one is eating a carb-containing carnivore diet, then fermentable fiber should be a huge consideration.
              Even the Inuit ate raw wild Eskimo potatoes, so there may also be benefits to RS for VLC dieters. For example, RS may help avoid some of the long term issues that many VLCers report.

              It's a bit off topic, but pectin is another fermentable fiber that I rarely see mentioned (inulin seems to be the most talked about one):
              "Prebiotic effect

              Following ingestion of pectin, very little of it gets digested in the small intestine. Some fermentation of pectin takes place in the large intestine via the action of bacteria. Pectin substituents (homogalacturonans) are fermented in the colon with the formation of short chain fatty acids. It has been shown that non-methyl-esterified pectins were more rapidly fermented than methyl-esterified pectins. The final products of fermentation of pectin are the short-chain fatty acids, acetate, propionate and butyrate, as well as hydrogen and carbon dioxide. The short-chain fatty acids that escape colonic metabolism are transported via the portal circulation to the liver where they undergo metabolism. The short-chain fatty acids that are not metabolised in the liver enter the systemic circulation and are distributed to the various tissues of the body. Acetate appears to be the principal short-chain fatty acid to reach the systemic circulation from the liver. Pectins are therefore beginning to gain interest as prebiotics. Studies on the metabolising of pectin chains has shown that many bacteria can degrade certain regions of the polymers, generally the HG regions. This use of a plentiful polysaccharide in maintaining and encouraging digestive flora is of advantage in assessing pectin uses in the future."

              Pectin basics - Nutritional aspects of pectins
              Pectin basics - Nutritional aspects of pectins | CyberColloids
              Last edited by Paleophil; 08-15-2013, 09:08 PM.
              Originally posted by tatertot
              Finding a diet you can tolerate is not the same as fixing what's wrong.
              "our ancestors obtained resistant starch and other fermentable fibers by eating a diversity of wild plant foods, bulbs, corms, tubers, cattails, cactuses, and medicinal barks..." -Mark Sisson

              "I've long ago tossed the idea that a particular macro ratio is poison, and am now starting to think that the EM2…is defined less by novel NADS…and more by the gut microbiome and environmental pseudocommensals ..." -Kurt Harris, MD

              Comment


              • Even the Inuit ate raw wild Eskimo potatoes, so there may also be benefits to RS for VLC dieters. For example, RS may help avoid some of the long term issues that many VLCers report.
                You'll never convince them, though, which is why I gave up trying...

                re: Pectin - good call! I see Apple Pectin in the healthfood stores, never knew much about it. I bought a jar of ground psyllium husks, but they turn to instant jelly when you mix them with stuff unless you completely water it down. Psyllium husk is a 'mucilage' type of fermentable fiber.

                Another interesting fermentable fiber is Larch Arabinogalactan, or Larch AG, a fermentable fiber found in Larch trees. Larch trees are known throughout the north as a tree full of medicinal qualities.

                A strange thing about dietary fiber--all of the guidelines are for total fiber, approx 30g/day, with the only distinction being soluble or insoluble (in water). No distinction is made between fermentable and nonfermentable. I think most people who aim for 30g a day end up eating nearly all of it in non-fermentable form (cellulose, lignin) and not the fermentable types (resistant starch, pectines, beta-glucans, gums (e.g. guar), inulin, oligosaccharides).

                I saw a study that discussed the 'carbohydrate gap' phenomenon in fermentable fibers saying that most fermentable fibers were self-limiting to about 5g/day--any over that amount ends up in feces--while RS can be assimilated up to about 60g/day.

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                • For someone who wanted to add some resistant starch to their diet in the form of whole foods, cooked and cooled potatoes would be a good start, right? I think these also happen to be ever so delicious. My question is, if you then reheat these potatoes, do they again lose that quality of being resistant starch, or not?
                  Annie Ups the Ante
                  http://www.marksdailyapple.com/forum/thread117711.html

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                  • If you reheat potatoes, you then need to recool them again, at least mostly. Think potato salad a favorite food at picnics this time of year.

                    Originally posted by otzi View Post
                    You'll never convince them, though, which is why I gave up trying...

                    re: Pectin - good call! I see Apple Pectin in the healthfood stores, never knew much about it.
                    The fact that fruit pectin is a fermentable fiber is an interesting coincidence with the research I've seen that the earliest primates consumed fermented tree foods like fermented tree saps and fermented honey and an anecdotal report that wild orangutans like to ferment fruits like durians to the point where they become mildly alcoholic and another report that bears love the smell of fermenting fruit. Perhaps not just fermented saps/honey, but also fermented fibery wild fruit was another ancient staple food.

                    Yes, the larch tree is a sacred tree, along with pine, birch, cedar, rowan, etc. Is the fermentable fiber in the inner pulpy bark that the ancients used to eat? Yes, fermentable vs. nonfermentable is recognized as more important by the latest science, but the soluble/insoluble meme keeps gettting repeated.
                    Originally posted by tatertot
                    Finding a diet you can tolerate is not the same as fixing what's wrong.
                    "our ancestors obtained resistant starch and other fermentable fibers by eating a diversity of wild plant foods, bulbs, corms, tubers, cattails, cactuses, and medicinal barks..." -Mark Sisson

                    "I've long ago tossed the idea that a particular macro ratio is poison, and am now starting to think that the EM2…is defined less by novel NADS…and more by the gut microbiome and environmental pseudocommensals ..." -Kurt Harris, MD

                    Comment


                    • roasted then refridgerated potatoes with cider vinegar has become my favorite way to have potatoes. Can't wait to get my blood work done on monday.

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                      • There are very few foods you can eat hot that have RS in them. Of the standard, recognizable, foods, green bananas stand out in terms of RS. A super-duper green, too-hard-too-peel, inedible banana should have close to 30g. When it ripens to where you can just peel it, it will have about 15g, when mostly yellow, 2-3g.

                        A great big potato, 1pound/500g in size, would have about 50g if eaten raw. Boiled and eaten hot--2-3g, allowed to cool overnight in fridge--5-10g. That's a lot of potato salad to eat just for 5-10g of RS.

                        However, if you included cooked and cooled potatoes regularly in your normal eating plans, whatever amount, and cooked and cooled rice, greenish bananas, beans, and nuts like almonds or macadamias, you could easily get 10-20g/day--which is like 5 times the amount of most people.

                        "How is that Ancestral?" you ask. If it's not easily available, why bother--surely Grok didn't, right? As pointed out by PaleoPhil, there were lots of ancestral foods very high in RS that have become totally unfamiliar to modern man. Breadfruit, sago palm pith, cattail roots, fermented taro, and some others. Add that to the steady supply of fermentable fiber that H-Gs had to eat to keep from starving such as fermented fruit, tree bark, whole seeds, raw tubers and lots of plants we wouldn't consider food.

                        I think for modern man, Mark's daily BAS (big-ass salad) filled with a wide variety of veggies and not just lettuce, along with some of the foods I mentioned earlier for RS daily is a really good plan, and easy, and at not a really heavy calorie/carb toll.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by otzi View Post
                          You'll never convince them, though, which is why I gave up trying...
                          What I mainly haven't been convinced of is that it was raw.... or that there are no ill consequence to consuming significant amounts of raw potato. Or maybe I didnt see it, did you ever find something to allay those fears?

                          Frankly though compared to most around here I'm a huge eater of nuts and seeds. So I probably get more RS than your average PBer from those sources.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Neckhammer View Post
                            What I mainly haven't been convinced of is that it was raw.... or that there are no ill consequence to consuming significant amounts of raw potato. Or maybe I didnt see it, did you ever find something to allay those fears?

                            Frankly though compared to most around here I'm a huge eater of nuts and seeds. So I probably get more RS than your average PBer from those sources.
                            Eating raw potato is harmless and self-limiting. Who wants to eat raw potatoes very often? A slice here and there maybe, but not as a staple.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by otzi View Post
                              Eating raw potato is harmless and self-limiting. Who wants to eat raw potatoes very often? A slice here and there maybe, but not as a staple.
                              I like raw potatoes, especially with salt and pepper.

                              Raw potatoes got me in trouble as a kid--my mom would peel, slice, potatoes and set them aside in cold water. I would go into the kitchen, repeatedly, and "steal" them, to the point she would notice.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by marcadav View Post
                                I like raw potatoes, especially with salt and pepper.

                                Raw potatoes got me in trouble as a kid--my mom would peel, slice, potatoes and set them aside in cold water. I would go into the kitchen, repeatedly, and "steal" them, to the point she would notice.
                                We used to do the exact same thing. And, we'd steal another good RS source--cookie dough.

                                Speaking of cookie dough, I make a killer batch with plantain flour. Make it just like the chocolate chip package says, substitute whatever for sugar, freeze it in 1TBS size balls. Each ball has about 5g of RS. Easy to eat 4 of those babies (hard to stop actually).

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