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  • Originally posted by otzi View Post
    "How is that Ancestral?" you ask. If it's not easily available, why bother--surely Grok didn't, right? As pointed out by PaleoPhil, there were lots of ancestral foods very high in RS that have become totally unfamiliar to modern man. Breadfruit, sago palm pith, cattail roots, fermented taro, and some others. Add that to the steady supply of fermentable fiber that H-Gs had to eat to keep from starving such as fermented fruit, tree bark, whole seeds, raw tubers and lots of plants we wouldn't consider food.
    Just started reading through this thread and wanted to pipe up and say hell yes this is ancestral. The following video is also how Sago starch has been collected in my mothers village (and the rest of Niugini) for eons. Woman's work though. Thought some if you may find it interesting to see how modern day H&G do it

    A strange food. A taste of the sago. - YouTube
    I don't believe there is one correct way of eating for everybody, and I don't believe there is one correct way of eating for a person through every stage of their life

    Comment


    • Originally posted by Frida View Post
      Two years of Low Carb gave me Hashimoto, now three years of Perfect Health Diet with lots of rice and potatoes couldn't reverse the damage.
      Bummer, did you detail your experience anywhere? Sounds like a good warning story to share with others.

      Have you tried increasing resistant starch up to a therapeutic level like many of us in this thread do?

      Different people have different gluten tolerances, probably in part due to differences in gut bacteria, colon health, immune system function, etc. It also depends on how optimal you want your diet to be and what your goals are.

      Since resistant starch is an antitoxicant and heals the colonocytes, I suspect it reduces the damage gluten can do, but I still mostly avoid gluten myself. My gluten sensitivity is sufficiently calmed down now that I don't worry about it if there's a little bit in something, though. I even tried a slice of store-bought sourdough bread, which is supposed to be low-gluten. Didn't taste good enough to me to eat any more; not nearly as good as my mother's homemade.

      All back to wholemeal, like the media said like forever?
      If you're going to eat it, it should probably be fermented too, like in the old days, preferably home-made. See the Weston A. Price Foundation for tips on making sourdough bread. Or something like Udi's GF bread with Tapioca Starch, Rice Flour, Potato Starch and such. Eaten cold, it might have some RS. Interestingly, it is rated the tastiest.

      If it were me, I would avoid all wheat, rye and barley until my thyroid was in better shape. YMMV
      Originally posted by tatertot
      Finding a diet you can tolerate is not the same as fixing what's wrong.
      "our ancestors obtained resistant starch and other fermentable fibers by eating a diversity of wild plant foods, bulbs, corms, tubers, cattails, cactuses, and medicinal barks..." -Mark Sisson

      "I've long ago tossed the idea that a particular macro ratio is poison, and am now starting to think that the EM2…is defined less by novel NADS…and more by the gut microbiome and environmental pseudocommensals ..." -Kurt Harris, MD

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Sweet Leilani View Post
        Just started reading through this thread and wanted to pipe up and say hell yes this is ancestral. The following video is also how Sago starch has been collected in my mothers village (and the rest of Niugini) for eons. Woman's work though. Thought some if you may find it interesting to see how modern day H&G do it

        A strange food. A taste of the sago. - YouTube
        Cool, thanks. I have seen similar vids before. I got a kick out of Bruce Parry trying sago for the first time and hating it, even though he didn't mind things like drinking a cup of fresh warm raw reindeer blood with hunks of salt thrown in and cooked rat.
        Last edited by Paleophil; 01-30-2014, 06:57 PM.
        Originally posted by tatertot
        Finding a diet you can tolerate is not the same as fixing what's wrong.
        "our ancestors obtained resistant starch and other fermentable fibers by eating a diversity of wild plant foods, bulbs, corms, tubers, cattails, cactuses, and medicinal barks..." -Mark Sisson

        "I've long ago tossed the idea that a particular macro ratio is poison, and am now starting to think that the EM2…is defined less by novel NADS…and more by the gut microbiome and environmental pseudocommensals ..." -Kurt Harris, MD

        Comment


        • Originally posted by tatertot View Post
          Frida - I think the toxins in wheat are some of the worst in the world, here's why.

          In your small intestine are structures known as Tight Junction Complexes (TJs). They separate the food you ate from your blood. When your body releases a chemical called zonulin, the TJs open up and let the food absorb into your body--that's the way it's supposed to work. It's all natural. The zonulin doesn't send the signal until everything is just right and the food is completely broken down.

          Wheat has a chemical called gliadin which looks just like zonulin and can make the TJs open up at the wrong time, allowing the wrong stuff to cross the gut-blood barrier. Other thing that do it, also, are certain food additives called surfactants, and vegetable oils.

          Things that strengthen the TJs are fermented foods, polyphenols (plant colors), and chemicals found in many herbs.

          For me, it's NO WHEAT, and i can't see that changing.

          Here's a good paper that discusses TJ permeability if you like reading this sort of thing.
          Thanks Tater for this great comment. I will be lost on Wikipedia and pubmed for days now when I should be studying.

          Comment


          • How much of the PHP do you take a day, tatertot?

            BTW, thank you for the PM's you sent; your kindness and generosity are appreciated.

            Ever think of created your own blog? I am sure your would get a HUGE following.
            “Let no barrier you face stop you from acting to optimal.” Dr. Jack Kruse

            "People who lack the clarity, courage, or determination to follow their own dreams will often find ways to discourage yours. When you change for the better, the people around you will be inspired to change also….but only after doing their best to make you stop." Dr. Jack Kruse

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Sweet Leilani View Post
              Just started reading through this thread and wanted to pipe up and say hell yes this is ancestral. The following video is also how Sago starch has been collected in my mothers village (and the rest of Niugini) for eons. Woman's work though. Thought some if you may find it interesting to see how modern day H&G do it

              A strange food. A taste of the sago. - YouTube
              I read that you could get 500 pounds of starch from 1 palm tree. And, sago starch is one of the best RS sources in the world. It was used heavily in Asia as the primary carb source until rice was introduced a thousand years ago or so.

              Thanks for the video, I always wondered what it looked like.
              Find me on Facebook!

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              • Originally posted by RittenRemedy View Post
                Thanks Tater for this great comment. I will be lost on Wikipedia and pubmed for days now when I should be studying.
                One thing that jumps out at me, coconut oil contains stuff that causes TJ permeability. Lauric acid for one. Maybe in the presence of coconut fiber and juice, it would be OK, but on it's own could cause leaky gut issues.
                Find me on Facebook!

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Theta View Post
                  How much of the PHP do you take a day, tatertot?

                  BTW, thank you for the PM's you sent; your kindness and generosity are appreciated.

                  Ever think of created your own blog? I am sure your would get a HUGE following.
                  I don't take Psyllium Husk Powder regularly. I have a 12oz bottle, half full, that's 6 mo old. Studies say it should help the potato starch spread throughout the large intestine better, but so will eating it alongside other fiber containing foods.


                  Maybe if you feel you need more fiber, PSP is a good one, but otherwise, lots of people get constipated with it and I'm not 100% sure it's all that great to take every day.

                  No blog for me. I am helping to write a book on gut health, RS, and some other things. Maybe it will be ready to publish this summer.
                  Find me on Facebook!

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by tatertot View Post
                    One thing that jumps out at me, coconut oil contains stuff that causes TJ permeability. Lauric acid for one. Maybe in the presence of coconut fiber and juice, it would be OK, but on it's own could cause leaky gut issues.
                    Gut permeability and bacterial translocation (endotoxemia) are an inevitable result of eating. You can't micromanage it as much as you'd like, unfortunately. All you can do is eat things that are known to support a healthy gut barrier (fiber, various phytochemicals) and avoid things that don't (gliadin, a high-fat diet*, etc).

                    *Endotoxins seem to love saturated fatty acids, but I wouldn't banish them from your diet completely. But it does make me wonder what's going to happen to Jimmy Moore a few years down the road.

                    Comment


                    • Thanks for your answer Tatertot. I read the study.
                      Same is said about lectins causing TJ permeability. So why should you avoid gliadin but keep eating legumes? Whatever, everybody has to decide for himself.

                      Paleophil, yes I talked about it now and then. It's all a big laugh to see how many alternative health care professionells recommend going gluten-free and low carb for autoimmune deseases. Yes I was two years without gluten and so called toxic blood-sugar ups and downs till I got sick. So how could this be when gluten is the so called trigger for autoimmune deseases.
                      Whatever, the majority seems to feel fine with this diet. I just recommend to listen to your own body. I should have done it but the low carb theories were to convincing.
                      I started it because of a candida infection... I should have done it for six weeks and then back to "normal" but unfortunately I kept the LC because I then considered everything else is poison. How stupid.

                      I think I'm going to eat everything now, just what my appetite longs for.

                      I take potato starch for 2 weeks now, 2tbsp/day. No gas at all. Maybe it's because I already ate potatoes and cold rice as staple foods or maybe I have no bifido at all. When I go up to 4tbsp I feel like it binds my thyroid meds. No other effects yet. I know it's too early.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Timthetaco View Post
                        Gut permeability and bacterial translocation (endotoxemia) are an inevitable result of eating. You can't micromanage it as much as you'd like, unfortunately. All you can do is eat things that are known to support a healthy gut barrier (fiber, various phytochemicals) and avoid things that don't (gliadin, a high-fat diet*, etc).

                        *Endotoxins seem to love saturated fatty acids, but I wouldn't banish them from your diet completely. But it does make me wonder what's going to happen to Jimmy Moore a few years down the road.
                        What about Jimmy's diet is of particular concern?
                        “Let no barrier you face stop you from acting to optimal.” Dr. Jack Kruse

                        "People who lack the clarity, courage, or determination to follow their own dreams will often find ways to discourage yours. When you change for the better, the people around you will be inspired to change also….but only after doing their best to make you stop." Dr. Jack Kruse

                        Comment


                        • Tater, There is a contrary anecdote of Lex Rooker's colon health improving on a diet high in raw meat/organs/fat and nearly absent of resistant starch:
                          "I had a colonoscopy a year ago and all polyps from the previous test had disappeared and the GI specialist told me that my colon was in such good shape that I would never again need to repeat the procedure. Complete opposite of what the doctors and popular press tell you will happen." Confuzzled...
                          Might raw organs also be protective against GI insult? Lex does have relatively high FBG and A1C, though.

                          I have some relatives who insist on eating tasty bread. They didn't like the store-bought sourdough or gluten-free breads they tried. Do you have a tasty bread brand recommendation (Udi's gluten free looks pretty good, except for the seed oils, and even contains potato and tapioca starch) or recipe?


                          Originally posted by Theta View Post
                          What about Jimmy's diet is of particular concern?
                          Isn't it low in RS? Based on this report, it looks that way: Jimmy Moore


                          Frida, do you have a specific link to a summary of your story? If not, I can use your posts here.

                          I do think it's a mistake to focus solely on just one or two things as the root of all obesity and health problems, like "carbs" or "gluten" or "saturated fat." It's better to look at the overall picture for each individual. However, that's not easy to explain in a book title, bumber sticker, or advertisement. To me, "Paleo" was never an absolute doctrine to eat certain specific foods and avoid certain others (which is exactly the sort of thing I have found that people ask, including of me, and if I try to give a broader, more vague answer or mention scientific terms like "evolutionary biology," they lose interest or even react negatively), in part because I found that the lists provided by different Paleo/ancestral diet authors and promoters (like Boyd Eaton, Loren Cordain, Ray Audette and Sally Fallon) had differences. To me it is more about Boyd Eaton's original NEJM hypothesis of biological discordance, which has gotten lost in all the diet books and cookbooks. Plus, biological discordance can include more things than just diet (such as the Old Friends Hypothesis, circadian rhythms, exercise, hormesis, the fractal aspects of nature, etc.).

                          I tried to come up with my own best guess as to what would work, based on a host of sources. Unfortunately, I wasn't aware of the importance of resistant starch and didn't come across anything that stressed it (at least not that I can remember). All I found somewhat along those lines was the misleading tangent of people vaguely promoting "fiber," which I generally interpreted as the stuff I had already tried that my physicians and the general media had advocated, like "heart healthy whole grains," (along with some other probably more benign fiber sources that still didn't do much for me, like big salads, "insoluble fiber" like psyllium seeds, "soluble fiber" like inulin-rich foods, etc.). Increasing my whole grain intake had already failed me--it only made things worse. If it hadn't been for that bad personal experience, I might have looked into resistant starch earlier, though I can't know for sure.

                          The anti-toxic effects of resistant starch and other prebiotics, as well as certain nutrients like zinc and vitamin B6, and the detoxifying effects of certain methods of food processing are reportedly offsets to the toxic effects of gluten. So is some form of processed glutenous bread an overall health positive? I doubt it in most cases, but I don't know for certain and if someone is otherwise completely avoiding starch or RS, then maybe it could be. Like anything, it's also a "your mileage may vary" thing.
                          Last edited by Paleophil; 01-31-2014, 10:51 AM.
                          Originally posted by tatertot
                          Finding a diet you can tolerate is not the same as fixing what's wrong.
                          "our ancestors obtained resistant starch and other fermentable fibers by eating a diversity of wild plant foods, bulbs, corms, tubers, cattails, cactuses, and medicinal barks..." -Mark Sisson

                          "I've long ago tossed the idea that a particular macro ratio is poison, and am now starting to think that the EM2…is defined less by novel NADS…and more by the gut microbiome and environmental pseudocommensals ..." -Kurt Harris, MD

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Paleophil View Post
                            Tater, There is a contrary anecdote of Lex Rooker's colon health improving on a diet high in raw meat/organs/fat and nearly absent of resistant starch:

                            Might raw organs also be protective against GI insult? Lex does have relatively high FBG and A1C, though.

                            I have some relatives who insist on eating tasty bread. They didn't like the store-bought sourdough or gluten-free breads they tried. Do you have a tasty bread brand recommendation (Udi's gluten free looks pretty good, except for the seed oils, and even contains potato and tapioca starch) or recipe?

                            Isn't it low in RS? Based on this report, it looks that way: Jimmy Moore
                            No idea. I think lots of organ meat is important, but also think lots of fermentable fiber is, too. One day someone will figure it all out.

                            No rec's on bread. I just pass on all of it. I do eat corn tortillas once a week or so.
                            Find me on Facebook!

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                            • I've been occasionally buying Udi's bread for my son and I have to say we only like it for grilled cheese sandwiches. We tried to make a sandwich with it yesterday and it was horribly dry and crumbly. I'm toying with making my own bread, similar to Udi's but with the addition of egg and possibly cheese as I think that would solve the dry/ crumbly texture of Udi's.
                              Life is death. We all take turns. It's sacred to eat during our turn and be eaten when our turn is over. RichMahogany.

                              Comment


                              • Frida, I also think that when it comes to starchy foods, it's probably better to focus on these aspects, than on glutenous grains:

                                > think of starch as "ground provisions" (I discussed it earlier in the thread) more than bread
                                > look for starchy foods that are edible raw (such as certain starchy fruits, nuts and low-toxin underground storage organs, when allowed to properly ripen, dry, or ferment, if needed)--these foods unfortunately tend to be scarce or expensive in cold-climate modern societies (potato starch is helpful here)
                                > if starchy foods that are edible raw that you have access to don't meet your needs, such as your needs for RS, calories or nutrients, then look secondarily to traditionally-processed/cooked starchy foods that are still rich in RS
                                > and for a caveat, see #2 in my signature

                                To sum, I suspect that the best starchy foods are those that a raw vegan who isn't afraid of starch would Eat. Optimally, they would know when foods are OK/best to eat and how to mimic nature's natural processing methods (ripening, drying, fermenting, freezing, ...), and when it's also OK to not wait for natural processing (ex: green plantains). Very few people in modern societies know all this.

                                This sort of way of eating is mostly relegated to traditional/"primitive" societies nowadays, and they are increasingly scarce. A wealth of traditional knowledge is being lost, though the Internet is reviving some of it a bit.
                                Last edited by Paleophil; 01-31-2014, 01:42 PM.
                                Originally posted by tatertot
                                Finding a diet you can tolerate is not the same as fixing what's wrong.
                                "our ancestors obtained resistant starch and other fermentable fibers by eating a diversity of wild plant foods, bulbs, corms, tubers, cattails, cactuses, and medicinal barks..." -Mark Sisson

                                "I've long ago tossed the idea that a particular macro ratio is poison, and am now starting to think that the EM2…is defined less by novel NADS…and more by the gut microbiome and environmental pseudocommensals ..." -Kurt Harris, MD

                                Comment

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