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  • #46
    I'm on both sides of the issue. I agree with Otzi AND Mark about the importance of producing butyrate in the gut as being extremely beneficial. It is probably better utilized than the butyrate we might obtain from our diets.

    On the other hand, I do not agree that we necessarily NEED resistant starches to make said butyrate. Here, I agree with Paleobird's contention that butyrate can be produced by our gut flora by any type of fiber such as vegetable fiber, fruit fiber, ect. As she was correct to point out, even Paul Jaminet admitted as much which is why I'm not so sure why he was pushing the "need" to produce butyrate from resistant starch.

    Is there something about butyrate that is produced from resistant starches that is superior as opposed to butyrate produced from other fibers?
    "The cling and a clang is the metal in my head when I walk. I hear a sort of, this tinging noise - cling clang. The cling clang. So many things happen while walking. The metal in my head clangs and clings as I walk - freaks my balance out. So the natural thought is just clogged up. Totally clogged up. So we need to unplug these dams, and make the the natural flow... It sort of freaks me out. We need to unplug the dams. You cannot stop the natural flow of thought with a cling and a clang..."

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    • #47
      Thanks for all the research Otzi - as someone who is adding some starches back into my diet, it makes sense to me to make them RS. Since I love potato salad and green bananas that should be pretty easy.
      My website: http://www.shoppinganywhere.net/

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      • #48
        Originally posted by jo View Post
        Thanks for all the research Otzi - as someone who is adding some starches back into my diet, it makes sense to me to make them RS. Since I love potato salad and green bananas that should be pretty easy.
        Same here. I have been reading a lot on RS. The way to maximize it in potatoes and rice is to cook, then cool to refrigerator temperature overnight. Do not reheat, or only heat minimally. Reheating will un-do the retrogradation of the RS and change it back into regular starch, so, if you can manage to eat cold rice and potatoes, that's a great source of RS.

        The fiber from other vegetable matter is called 'insoluable fiber' and also may play a roll in gut health, but not in the same sense as RS. RS is in a class of it's own when discussing colon health and other benefits.

        Here's the coolest thing I came across. If you consume 100g (400kcal) of RS, your gut microbes eat 50g of it in the conversion of RS to butyrate which only leaves 50g (200 calories) for you. In essence, when eating RS, if the label says 400 calories, you only get 200 calories out of it.

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        • #49
          Resistant Starch - IvanNikolov.com

          Very good write-up of RS

          "...The two main components of starch are amylose and amylopectin. As a general rule starches that contain more amylose (the linear fraction of starch) produce more RS after retrogradation than those with mainly amylopectin content (the crystalline fraction of starch).

          In other words starches rich in amylose are generally more resistant to digestion and also more susceptible to retrogradation.

          Retrogradation occurs when starch is heated in water above its gelatinization temperature and then cooled. When cooked beyond certain temperature starch granules gelatinize (melt) thus becoming more readily digestible.

          However, these starch gels are unstable and upon cooling re-form crystals that are resistant to hydrolysis by amylases (digestive enzymes). Reheating of starch reduces the RS content while continuous cycles of reheating and cooling have shown to increase RS.

          Studies suggest that the energy value of RS is approximately 2 kcal/g (8 kJ/g) as opposed to the energy value for completely digestible starch 4.2 kcal/g (15 kJ/g) (Liversey 1994).

          Physiological effects of RS

          As already mentioned above RS escape digestion in the upper intestinal tract and once in the large intestine they are subject to fermentation by the microflora with end-products SCFA (short chain fatty acids), hydrogen, carbon dioxide and methane.

          As being of most importance to the human health we will now focus our attention mainly on SCFA. SCFA are a product of bacterial fermentation. The main components are butyrate, propionate and acetate with the first one being produced in significantly higher levels in comparison with the other two.

          SCFA are the main energy source of the colonocytes (the colon mucosa). They help lower the pH of the intestine, increase colonic blood flow, help reduce the presence of toxic ammonia, and help prevent the development of abnormal colonic cell populations. SCFA are known as a bio-marker for colonic health.

          It’s worth mentioning also that RS serve as a physical protection for the probiotics. These are cultures of live microorganisms, which are shown to regulate the flora in the intestinal tract. Therefore, resistant starch is prebiotic, based on its probiotic protecting and stimulating properties..."

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          • #50
            Your latest write-up, while interesting, doesn't explain why the butyrate must come from resistant starch when it could come from any source of fiber as has been shown.
            "The cling and a clang is the metal in my head when I walk. I hear a sort of, this tinging noise - cling clang. The cling clang. So many things happen while walking. The metal in my head clangs and clings as I walk - freaks my balance out. So the natural thought is just clogged up. Totally clogged up. So we need to unplug these dams, and make the the natural flow... It sort of freaks me out. We need to unplug the dams. You cannot stop the natural flow of thought with a cling and a clang..."

            Comment


            • #51
              Originally posted by Drumroll View Post
              Your latest write-up, while interesting, doesn't explain why the butyrate must come from resistant starch when it could come from any source of fiber as has been shown.
              Have you seen somewhere that fiber produces butyrate? I haven't seen that, I don't think...I thought fiber mostly passes through unchanged or produces off-smelling gasses.

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              • #52
                Maybe this explains it, still, mysteries abound!

                Colonic Digestive Health - Resistant Starch

                The fermentation of resistant starch increases short-chain fatty acids in the colon. The fermentation of resistant starch produces more butyrate than other fibers tested.4 Butyrate is particularly important because it is the primary energy source for colonic cells and has anti-inflammatory properties that are important for keeping colon cells healthy.5, 6


                In addition, butyrate has anti-carcinogenic properties. Published research has shown that butyrate inhibits the growth and proliferation of tumor cell lines in vitro7, it induces differentiation of tumor cells, producing a phenotype similar to that of the normal mature cell, 8 and it induces apoptosis or programmed cell death of human colorectal cancer cells.


                · The fermentation of resistant starch reduces intestinal pH and the production of potentially harmful secondary bile acids, ammonia and phenols.9


                · Resistant starch prevents the degradation of the mucous layer within the colon. This mucous layer is believed to protect colon cells.10


                · Resistant starch may help to reduce the risk of colorectal cancer. Three mechanisms are believed to be involved in the protection against the development and growth of cancer cells – initiation, differentiation and apoptosis. Resistant starch has been shown to protect colon cells from DNA damage11; to promote the normalization (i.e. differentiation) of cancerous cells within the colon and increase the apoptosis (programmed cell death) of cells damaged by carcinogens.12 A recent clinical study found that resistant starch reduced the proportion of mitotic cells in the top half of colonic crypts (a marker for pre-malignancy), and increased expression of cell cycle regulatory genes in patients with colorectal cancer. 13 A recent published multi-center clinical trial concluded that resistant starch was not effective in preventing colon cancer in individuals genetically predisposed to colon cancer (individuals wih Lynch Syndrome).14

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                • #53
                  Somehow, eating foods at room temperature have always felt better to me than eating them hot or cold. But I love cold rice, especially in the summer, and the idea of eating cold potatoes with salt and vinegar sounds reeeeeeally yummy!

                  Would room temperature be almost as good as 'cold' (which in my mind means straight from the fridge)?

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                  • #54
                    Originally posted by Paleobird View Post
                    But Otzi, the above article on Butyrate by Jaminet also says this ;But Otzi, the above article on Butyrate by Jaminet also says this ;

                    Sources of Butyrate

                    There are two main ways to get butyrate and other short-chain fatty acids. The first is to eat fiber and let your intestinal bacteria do the rest. Whole plant foods such as sweet potatoes, properly prepared whole grains, beans, vegetables, fruit and nuts are good sources of fiber.

                    Butyrate also occurs in significant amounts in food. What foods contain butyrate? Hmm, I wonder where the name BUTYR-ate came from? Butter perhaps? Butter is 3-4 percent butyrate, the richest known source.


                    I don't see the point in eating starches, resistant or otherwise if the whole point is to get your Butyrate on. Sounds to me like veggies with butter on top with perhaps some fruit or nuts for dessert would work just fine.
                    Originally posted by otzi View Post
                    Have you seen somewhere that fiber produces butyrate? I haven't seen that, I don't think...I thought fiber mostly passes through unchanged or produces off-smelling gasses.
                    Otzi, it was in the article by Jaminet that you had in the OP.

                    I tried to point this out to you on page two.

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                    • #55
                      Originally posted by Paleobird View Post
                      Otzi, it was in the article by Jaminet that you had in the OP.

                      I tried to point this out to you on page two.
                      I still haven't seen anyone say that fibrous veggies, or dietary fiber, do the same thing as RS.

                      There are two main ways to get butyrate and other short-chain fatty acids. The first is to eat fiber and let your intestinal bacteria do the rest. Whole plant foods such as sweet potatoes, properly prepared whole grains, beans, vegetables, fruit and nuts are good sources of fiber.
                      This quote shows me that the author is confused by RS and fiber. They are two seperate things. The list he gives contains both items known to be rich in RS (grains, beans, sw.potatoes, nuts) and fiber (vegetables, fruit).

                      From: An Error Occurred Setting Your User Cookie
                      SUMMARY Dietary starch and fiber, particularly the fermentable content, may be important for long-term weight loss and the prevention and management of Type 2 diabetes. Resistant starch and most dietary fibers are fermented in the colon producing short chain fatty acids. Free fatty acid receptors 2 and 3 are two recently discovered receptors. The main ligands for these receptors are short chain fatty acids. These receptors are found on enteroendocrine L-cells in the colon where they stimulate the release of anorectic hormones (glucagon-like peptide-1 and peptide tyrosine tyrosine) and on adipocytes where they can exert improvements to insulin sensitivity. Recent studies have shown that supplementing the diet with fermentable fiber can have a positive effect on weight loss and insulin sensitivity. Further investigations with high-risk populations are warranted to determine if long-term dietary interventions with fermentable fibers can protect against or delay the progression of Type 2 diabetes.

                      In conclusion, use of resistant starch in the diet as a bioactive functional food component is a natural, endogenous way to increase gut hormones that are effective in reducing energy intake. The PYY and GLP-1 signals associated with use of RS in the diet may alter long-term energy balance by interaction with neuronal pathways in the brain (18,19) and have other benefits such as the health of the gut (34). If dietary means are effective with fermentable fibers, then this may be a better way to treat obesity. Creative studies will be required to tease out possible mechanisms for effects of RS compared with non-fermentable fiber on lowering body fat and beneficial effects on other body measures.
                      You know the acronym FODMAP? Those are all non-fermentable and fermentable food sources that resist digestion and end up in the colon causing problems for some. Resistant Starches are not a FODMAP.

                      The significance of sources of FODMAPs varies through differences in dietary groups such as geography, ethnicity and other factors.[3]

                      [edit] Sources of fructansSources of fructans include wheat, rye, onion, garlic, Jerusalem and globe artichoke, asparagus, chocolate and prebiotics such as FOS, oligofructose and inulin.[2][3]

                      [edit] Sources of galactansPulses and beans are the main dietary sources.[2]

                      [edit] Sources of polyolsPolyols are found naturally in some fruit (particularly stone fruits), including apples, apricots, blackberries, cherries, lychees, nectarines, peaches, pears, plums, prunes, watermelon and some vegetables, including avocados, cauliflower, mushrooms and mange-tout peas. They are also used as artificial sweeteners and include isomalt, maltitol, mannitol, sorbitol and xylitol.[2][3]

                      [edit] Sources of fructoseSee: Foods with high fructose content

                      [edit] Sources of lactoseSee: Avoiding lactose-containing products

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                      • #56
                        Resistant starch is a kind of dietary fibre. It's in the first line of the Wikipedia article you quoted right near the start of this thread.

                        Resistant starch - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
                        “If I didn't define myself for myself, I would be crunched into other people's fantasies for me and eaten alive.” --Audre Lorde

                        Owly's Journal

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                        • #57
                          Originally posted by Owly View Post
                          Resistant starch is a kind of dietary fibre. It's in the first line of the Wikipedia article you quoted right near the start of this thread.

                          Resistant starch - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
                          Yeah, Owly, I thing Otzi has found his latest and greatest Holy Grail of diet/fitness. We shouldn't bother him while he is polishing it

                          OK, I can't resist pointing out one thing. All of the studies showing the "health benefits" of RS are showing RS compared to high glycemic index fast digesting starches. This is like Dr Oz saying that "healthywholegrains" are good for you because they are better than Wonder Bread.

                          In any study like that saying <xyz> is great, you have to ask yourself, "As compared to what?"

                          I'm not saying that RS is unhealthy, just that it is not essential for health. Butyrate is formed by bacteria in the colon digesting any fibrous material and eating butter gets you a really big dose of butyrate directly. So broccoli with butter on top sounds like my plan.

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                          • #58
                            Originally posted by Paleobird View Post
                            Yeah, Owly, I thing Otzi has found his latest and greatest Holy Grail of diet/fitness. We shouldn't bother him while he is polishing it
                            Your critiques make me dig harder. It's all good. I think RS has merit, though. ymmv

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                            • #59
                              And I can't help but keep wondering why if everything ends up as fat anyway, why bother with all these complicated food substances and miracle hacks to get there? Just eat real food and let it happen however it may.

                              If you want a food with copious resistant starch, why not try seeking out the elusive purple sweet potato. I'm pretty sure that it's probably got the most resistant starch of anything, although it's totally based on speculation due to how it tasted and its unusual texture. That, and the ultimate result of eating it, so to speak. I do have to say these are extremely delicious and if I ever see them again I will definitely buy more. I'm tempted to order a box.
                              Purple Sweet Potatoes (Purple Yam) - Home of the Stokes Purple Sweet Potato - Stokes Foods, Inc.
                              Female, 5'3", 50, Max squat: 202.5lbs. Max deadlift: 225 x 3.

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                              • #60
                                Originally posted by Paleobird View Post
                                Yeah, Owly, I thing Otzi has found his latest and greatest Holy Grail of diet/fitness. We shouldn't bother him while he is polishing it

                                OK, I can't resist pointing out one thing. All of the studies showing the "health benefits" of RS are showing RS compared to high glycemic index fast digesting starches. This is like Dr Oz saying that "healthywholegrains" are good for you because they are better than Wonder Bread.

                                In any study like that saying <xyz> is great, you have to ask yourself, "As compared to what?"

                                I'm not saying that RS is unhealthy, just that it is not essential for health. Butyrate is formed by bacteria in the colon digesting any fibrous material and eating butter gets you a really big dose of butyrate directly. So broccoli with butter on top sounds like my plan.
                                I still think that we probably better utilize the butyrate we produce in our gut rather than the stuff we obtain directly from our diet. If we didn't, then we wouldn't have any reason to have developed this adaptation to be able to do so. And it supports our healthy gut flora so that's all well and good.

                                But I'm with you on the fact that the evidence shows that any type of fiber is able to stimulate production of it and resistant starches aren't the only source. So this is another good excuse for people to get some greens in their diet.
                                "The cling and a clang is the metal in my head when I walk. I hear a sort of, this tinging noise - cling clang. The cling clang. So many things happen while walking. The metal in my head clangs and clings as I walk - freaks my balance out. So the natural thought is just clogged up. Totally clogged up. So we need to unplug these dams, and make the the natural flow... It sort of freaks me out. We need to unplug the dams. You cannot stop the natural flow of thought with a cling and a clang..."

                                Comment

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