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  • Originally posted by otzi View Post
    Also, I think maybe the Inuit were getting a bit of RS, too! People like to think they were eating nothing but whale blubber and seal oil, but in reality, there was all kinds of plant food. From the University of Fairbanks, Alaska on Eskimo food:
    You need to take a step back and listen to yourself. You are trying to justify eating resistant starches by making reference to Inuit ( as they call themselves, as opposed to the derogatory "eater of whale blubber" which is what Eskimo means ) diets that include COOKED starches. Why on earth would the silly Inuit choose to cook their starches? Maybe because that makes them much more nutritious in that it severs the glucoside bonds for which we lack the appropriate enzymes to metabolize. Or in other words, the very purpose of cooking is to make resistant starches non-resistant!

    I have never argued against starches per se, but I have always advocated a healthy bit of caution when it comes to unthinkingly jumping on the RS bandwagon. Did the Inuit ever eat cooked starches that had cooled in the interim? Probably, but you would have to establish that this was their preferred way of eating them to even remotely begin to formulate a convincing argument. Good luck with that ( although I expect you will simply ignore this and assume that they did and go on your merry way )

    Your confirmation bias is of monumental proportions!

    -PK
    My blog : cogitoergoedo.com

    Interested in Intermittent Fasting? This might help: part 1, part 2, part 3.

    Comment


    • I've seen claims from credible sources that buckwheat is quite distinct and different from wheat and gluten-free. I'm gluten sensitive myself, but I never bothered to test the claim, as I don't seem to tolerate any grains or grainlike seeds well and one has to seek out buckwheat to eat it as it's not a common food. I haven't tried Otzi's recommended forms much recently, though and he has almost persuaded me to try some of them again.
      Yeah, buckwheat has nothing to do with cereals, let alone wheat. It is a seed. I grew up eating tons of it, and I actually think removing it from my diet was not a great idea, as it is rich in magnesium.

      Otherwise, Norman's diet is not something I am willing to try, since eliminating radishes, rutabagas, beets and carrots... makes no sense to me, and never will.
      My Journal: http://www.marksdailyapple.com/forum/thread57916.html
      When I let go of what I am, I become what I might be.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by normjr1 View Post
        I don’t think you need to worry about “converting me” so much as convincing people that have IBS, GERD or other SIBO illnesses that RS won’t make their condition worse. Based on the success of the diets I mentioned above, I’m not overly optimistic. But it’s possible that it won’t, particularly if you limit the other four difficult to digest-but-fermentable carbs I mentioned above. Some people’s gut microbes don’t process RS at all so clearly it’s not as fermentable as some of the simpler carbs like fructose, lactose, and the more fermentable fiber types. It seems to behave a bit like cellulose fiber which appears to be the least threatening of 8 fiber types. RS could end up in the number two slot, but more work is needed to show it’s clearly not a threat for SIBO. Norm
        Alright! We got Norm involved. I love what you are doing for people, Norm. I hope that some of our info on RS is helping you with what you are doing. We are clearly on opposite sides of the fence, but that's a good thing in this case. I know very well the problems caused by SIBO and antibiotics and PPIs, and can see exactly why avoiding low GI/high RS foods would be best.

        @Paleophil - I am going to try to get the full-text of the study you linked, I think there is something funny going on with it--I've seen that abstract before but didn't pay any attention as it doesn't jive with what I know about RS in rice from other studies. I think cooking method is the biggest factor in RS in rice. Even short-grain, sticky rice with a GI of over 100 can develop a fair bit of RS when cooled and reheated--not as much as long-grain, but still more than just plain cooked rice.

        Originally posted by pklopp View Post
        You need to take a step back and listen to yourself. You are trying to justify eating resistant starches by making reference to Inuit...Your confirmation bias is of monumental proportions! -PK
        You are really scraping the bottom now!

        Comment


        • @PaleoPhil - OK, I see you did include the full text link to the Hawaiian study on RS in rice. What I see, is that long-grain rice has the highest RS (2.55%) when cooked and cooled. All the other rices looked at (Jasmine, Med, and Short Grain) have significantly less than 1%. If they'd have taken this a few steps further, they'd have been surprised!

          I think the values they came up with for fresh cooked rice are accurate, which is why I never liked rice as an RS source. Then I saw this thesis:

          In Chapter 2 on page 38, they get into different food preps effect on RS. They found that freshly cooked rice had less than 1% RS, baked rice had 3.4% RS for short-grain and 13% for long-grain, and fried rice made from chilled rice has 12-16% regardless of variety.

          I can't cut and paste from the thesis, you'll have to look on your own. Table 2.5 at the very end has the data all tabulated.
          Last edited by otzi; 09-30-2013, 10:13 AM.

          Comment


          • Otzi, I don't think that you and Norm are on opposite sides of the fence, if the list of foods allegedly from Fast Tract Digestion - Heartburn is relatively accurate, and he wrote:

            "particularly if you limit the other four difficult to digest-but-fermentable carbs I mentioned above. Some people’s gut microbes don’t process RS at all so clearly it’s not as fermentable as some of the simpler carbs like fructose, lactose, and the more fermentable fiber types. It seems to behave a bit like cellulose fiber which appears to be the least threatening of 8 fiber types."
            Jasmine is an aromatic variety of long grain rice and, according to the study, when oven-baked (a dry form of cooking) is actually higher in RS than other long grain varieties. I suspect that will be found to be the case with stir-fried jasmine rice too, which is also a fairly dry cooking method.

            The list of foods can be made decently high in RS, with some probiotics:

            MEAT & FISH – all
            SOUPS – miso#, broth
            CRACKERS – rice cakes*, crackers*
            COOKIES – shortbread
            FLOUR – buckwheat groats** and pancakes*
            RICE – stir-fried jasmine**, cold Asian sticky*
            POTATO – cold waxy*, cold Yukon gold*
            VEGETABLES – all leaves and stalks, no roots
            DAIRY – cream, sour cream#, yogurt#, some cheeses: ricotta, cream cheese, brie, Gouda
            NUTS – almonds, cashews, walnuts
            FRUIT – berries
            # = probiotic food
            * = RS food, ** high RS food
            Originally posted by tatertot
            Finding a diet you can tolerate is not the same as fixing what's wrong.
            "our ancestors obtained resistant starch and other fermentable fibers by eating a diversity of wild plant foods, bulbs, corms, tubers, cattails, cactuses, and medicinal barks..." -Mark Sisson

            "I've long ago tossed the idea that a particular macro ratio is poison, and am now starting to think that the EM2…is defined less by novel NADS…and more by the gut microbiome and environmental pseudocommensals ..." -Kurt Harris, MD

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Paleophil View Post
              Otzi, I don't think that you and Norm are on opposite sides of the fence...
              Nope, we are completely on opposite sides of this fence! But in this case, good fences make good neighbors... I've had the pleasure of exchanging ideas with Norm quite frequently the last few months--he is looking to exclude almost completely any food source which is fermented by gut bacteria of all kinds, so as to prevent out-of-place gut bacteria (SIBO) from fermenting and causing back-pressure. This is his novel approach to helping people with SIBO, GERD, IBS, etc... and he is helping lots of people with it. He even gave a talk at the Ancestral Health Society this year.

              Norm uses the Glycemic Index as the basis for his 'OK' foodlists. Many of the foods on it can be tweaked to build up the RS, but he wants the complete opposite for his patients. I agree with all your asterisks and hashtags above.

              Comment


              • Even if so, in my experience most folks seek to maximize the yumminess of whatever diet they try. So if they like stir-fried rice, they will eat that unless the diet expressly forbids it. Granted, I'll bet buckwheat groats aren't particularly yummy, so there probably won't be many folks eating that.
                Originally posted by tatertot
                Finding a diet you can tolerate is not the same as fixing what's wrong.
                "our ancestors obtained resistant starch and other fermentable fibers by eating a diversity of wild plant foods, bulbs, corms, tubers, cattails, cactuses, and medicinal barks..." -Mark Sisson

                "I've long ago tossed the idea that a particular macro ratio is poison, and am now starting to think that the EM2…is defined less by novel NADS…and more by the gut microbiome and environmental pseudocommensals ..." -Kurt Harris, MD

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Paleophil View Post
                  Even if so, in my experience most folks seek to maximize the yumminess of whatever diet they try. So if they like stir-fried rice, they will eat that unless the diet expressly forbids it. Granted, I'll bet buckwheat groats aren't particularly yummy, so there probably won't be many folks eating that.
                  I agree with that! I was really surprised to learn that RS3 actually increases on heating where RS2 almost completely disappears. If you ever read any of the old 'potato diet' threads, we were advocating pre-cooking all the potatoes, then dry-frying them for a quick meal. Unknowingly, this is the best way to maximize RS in a potato, and way better than cold potatoes.

                  So, that being said, Norm would advise against this way of preparing potatoes, opting for the prep that has the highest GI, probably boiled and eaten hot.

                  The fact that Norm can treat SIBO with complete avoidance of RS and low GI foods actually gives a lot of credibility for increasing these foods for people with relatively normal guts.

                  Comment


                  • : ( my mistake

                    Originally posted by FrenchFry View Post
                    Mmm, not exactly on topic but buckwheat has NOTHING TO DO with wheat ... poor name maybe, but buckwheat is a plant related to rhubarb, the seeds of which are edible by humans when properly processed (soaked, etc).
                    Thanks for correcting me. I'm not a buckwheat eater and didn't pay it much mind, except to include pancakes made from it in my tables.

                    Comment


                    • Good summary Otzi, just one correction. Fast Tract Digestion advocates "limiting" not "excluding" foods that drive fermentation in cases of SIBO. That would include carrots, rhubarb and the other foods mentioned in a previous post.

                      Comment


                      • Thanks for responding PaleoPhil, I agree with you. We have much more to learn. I am enjoying this conversation and already learned a couple of things that will help with the book I am currently working on. I have been digging into the the physical testing methods for carbs, fiber and RS that support nutritional food labeling requirements. These values are used in the Fast Tract Diet for calculating fermentation potential.

                        You're right when you say "some of your and Otzi's numbers and assessments don't seem to be matching up". I am interested in the disagreement between glycemic index-based calculations and measurements from physical test methods. One reason could be the different AOAC methods in use for determining dietary fiber. Some methods report RS as a component of DF while others exclude it. And, as Otzi has pointed out in the past, RS is not fixed as other food components are and changes based on several factors - most importantly, cooking and cooling.

                        I was also interested in your statement that frying rice increases RS. I have wondered about that and do have at least one fried rice recipe in some of my books. Might have to rethink this - One problem, it's delicious!

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by normjr1 View Post
                          I was also interested in your statement that frying rice increases RS. I have wondered about that and do have at least one fried rice recipe in some of my books. Might have to rethink this - One problem, it's delicious!
                          To maximize RS in rice, you need to choose one with a low GI (Uncle Ben's, etc...), cooked in a standard method, but use a bit less water than the instructions call for, then cool the rice to at least 40 deg, or even freeze, for at least 24 hours. Then reheat the rice by quickly stirring in very hot oil.

                          I think you can easily reverse a few key steps and make delicious fried rice that would have virtually no RS. Cook high GI rice in a bit more water than called for and use it immediately in a stir-fry recipe being careful not to overheat it and don't eat leftovers.
                          Last edited by otzi; 10-01-2013, 09:15 AM.

                          Comment


                          • Norm, Have any of your readers have reported problems from fried jasmine rice? If not, then why eliminate it? Like you said, RS doesn't appear to be as problematic for people with bowel disorders as other "fibers".

                            If you have any studies linking bowel problems (beyond flatulence) or klebsiella to RS, please let me know.

                            I hope you'll have time to thoroughly investigate resistant starch before publication of your book. So far the claims I've seen that RS is connected to aggravation of bowel disorders or pathogenic klebsiella have not panned out when I looked for supporting evidence. The studies with links to bowel disorders I've seen cited turned out to either lump RS in with other "fiber," making it impossible to determine which of the types of fiber was a problem, or didn't even mention RS. I searched for evidence supporting a link to klebsiella after Petro of the Hyperlipid blog mentioned that (but uncharacteristically didn't cite any sources). Only one article I found listed a study linking RS to klebsiella, and only an abstract was available. The abstract indicated the opposite--that RS helps fight klebsiella, not promote it.

                            I have begged skeptics, critics and concerned citizens multiple times (in this forum and at the Free the Animal blog) to please provide any substantive evidence of harm from RS, either studies or personal experience (preferably verified by something objective or third-party, like a blood glucose monitor or physician diagnosis, but I'll take almost anything at this point) and haven't seen anything that stood up under scrutiny. I'd like to know, because even though I haven't had any negatives in the short-term from it, I'd like to know if there are any long-term risks and at what point does it become too much of a good thing. Things tend to go silent after I ask for negative evidence. Pklopp did ask a question I had raised about how much of RS is too much and what the sweet spot is (is it 5g/day or more?) and then Otzi enlightened us on that topic and that's been about it. I'm particularly interested in input from folks like you whose writiings are substantive and fact-based. Thanks.
                            Last edited by Paleophil; 10-02-2013, 06:01 AM.
                            Originally posted by tatertot
                            Finding a diet you can tolerate is not the same as fixing what's wrong.
                            "our ancestors obtained resistant starch and other fermentable fibers by eating a diversity of wild plant foods, bulbs, corms, tubers, cattails, cactuses, and medicinal barks..." -Mark Sisson

                            "I've long ago tossed the idea that a particular macro ratio is poison, and am now starting to think that the EM2…is defined less by novel NADS…and more by the gut microbiome and environmental pseudocommensals ..." -Kurt Harris, MD

                            Comment


                            • Been eating cold (properly prepared, black) beans (1/2 cup) every morning with breakfast and taking Glucomannan 2x a day (about an hour after breakfast and lunch). I go through the days without feeling ravenous and obsessed with food, and have much lighter suppers (really snacks) + sleep closer to 8 than 7 hours. My weight is not going up, even though I was barely doing anything beyond walking a little + eating fruit. I am not adding any other RS, as in the past cold potatoes and grains did not do much for me.

                              At the very least RS + other starches/fiber might be good at either blood sugar/hunger control. I am glad this thread cam up, because it finally made me stop quibbling and add beans back to my diet.
                              My Journal: http://www.marksdailyapple.com/forum/thread57916.html
                              When I let go of what I am, I become what I might be.

                              Comment


                              • I think that making beans 'bad' was a big mistake for paleo. It's easy to make a case against beans if you look at what's in raw beans or minimally prepared beans, but when beans are properly lacto-fermented, they become a sort of super-food. Great protein and carbs/fiber/resistant starch in good proportions.

                                Some things I learned recently about proper prep of beans, not sure if we discussed here earlier, but they should be soaked for a miniimum of 12 hours, preferably 24-48. More than 48 not needed. Put a TBS or so of salt in the water at the start, this will inhibit bad bacteria from growing until the lactobaccilus has a chance to get going. Don't rinse the water until the end. If you make a particularly good, bubbly batch--save a couple cups of the water in a jar in the fridge and use to get you next batch going.

                                The process of soaking beans is just like making sauerkraut or kefir, you are relying on natural lacto-bacteria found on the raw foods to ferment and make huge changes to the structure of the food, ie, breaking down fibers and converting nutrients/vitamins into readily available forms.

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