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  • Sorry, folks, I have another question, what type of fiber is glucomannan (konjak root)? I take it daily for appetite suppression, normally two 575 mg pills. Is it resistant starch and is it enough?
    My Journal: http://www.marksdailyapple.com/forum/thread57916.html
    When I let go of what I am, I become what I might be.

    Comment


    • Originally posted by Leida View Post
      Sorry, folks, I have another question, what type of fiber is glucomannan (konjak root)? I take it daily for appetite suppression, normally two 575 mg pills. Is it resistant starch and is it enough?
      Glucomannan is a type of fiber known as glucomannan...

      It's a type of soluble, fermentable fiber, a good prebiotic, and found in the konjak root and a few other obscure places. I've looked at quite a few studies on it and results range from very effective for appetite control and cholesterol lowering to marginally effective.

      It does seem to have the best result in lowering triglycerides, though.

      The approx 1g per day you are taking is the normal dose in the studies. I would have to guess it's actions on lower trigs and whatever else it does is separate from the way RS does what it does. With RS, fairly large doses are needed because it's actions come from completely restructuring the intestines with beneficial microbes...1 gram has almost no effect, but 10-30g have huge effects.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Paleophil View Post
        OK, so Peter identified a specific theoretical risk from eating "fiber" - IBS produced by klebsiella. I tried to find info on this and found claims that there are plenty of studies showing this, but didn't find any actual studies that make a clear direct connection between RS and klebsiella. This article The Link between Ankylosing Spondylitis, Crohn’s Disease, Klebsiella, and Starch Consumption pointed to this study as evidence of the klebsiella-RS link:

        71. B. Kleessen, G. Stoof, J. Proll, D. Schmiedl, J. Noack, and M. Blaut, “Feeding resistant starch affects fecal and cecal microflora and short-chain fatty acids in rats,” Journal of Animal Science, vol. 75, no. 9, pp. 2453–2462, 1997. View at Scopus Feeding resistant starch affects fecal and cecal ... [J Anim Sci. 1997] - PubMed - NCBI

        but the study conclusion actually suggests the opposite, that "Stimulation of bifidobacteria, lactobacilli, and SCFA [via RS] may be useful for the suppression of pathogenic organisms in the colon."

        How odd. Have you found anything re: RS and klebsiella?
        How funny, we must think exactly alike. I clicked on your first link, then went directly to reference number 71, and thought -- 'what the hell are they trying to say--this seems like proof RS is a good thing" Then I see you did the exact same thing...

        The only thing I can say, if you have Crohn's, AS, C-Diff, SIBO, or anything like that, it's probably because you spent a long time abusing your intestines. Once you have it, you are kind of hosed. The usual treatment is lots of powerful antibiotics. A guy's wife I work with was in the hospital for 3 weeks with C-Diff and almost died several years ago--she hasn't been right since, all kinds of auto-immune problems now, and round after round of antibiotics.

        RS is probably really bad to ingest if your gut is infected with large colonies of pathological bacteria, but to ensure a healthy gut and hopefully keep those bacteria at bay, RS is probably the best prebiotic there is.

        Comment


        • I have noticed before that your writing jibes more with my own thinking than most people's.

          Petro is the best critic of RS I've seen so far, though I'm disappointed by his casual dismissal of RS without citing sources. Not as much of an effort as I expected.

          Originally posted by otzi View Post
          RS is probably really bad to ingest if your gut is infected with large colonies of pathological bacteria
          Somewhere in this thread you posted a link to a study that found against that assumption, as it seems this latest linked study does, based on the abstract.
          Last edited by Paleophil; 09-12-2013, 08:09 PM.
          Originally posted by tatertot
          Finding a diet you can tolerate is not the same as fixing what's wrong.
          "our ancestors obtained resistant starch and other fermentable fibers by eating a diversity of wild plant foods, bulbs, corms, tubers, cattails, cactuses, and medicinal barks..." -Mark Sisson

          "I've long ago tossed the idea that a particular macro ratio is poison, and am now starting to think that the EM2…is defined less by novel NADS…and more by the gut microbiome and environmental pseudocommensals ..." -Kurt Harris, MD

          Comment


          • The approx 1g per day you are taking is the normal dose in the studies. I would have to guess it's actions on lower trigs and whatever else it does is separate from the way RS does what it does. With RS, fairly large doses are needed because it's actions come from completely restructuring the intestines with beneficial microbes...1 gram has almost no effect, but 10-30g have huge effects.
            Gotcha, thank you. Glucomannan does decrease appetite for me (like maybe the only thing that does!). I will start eating beans, and see how it goes. It fits into my renewed blood sugar control efforts, so I think it should work for the best.
            My Journal: http://www.marksdailyapple.com/forum/thread57916.html
            When I let go of what I am, I become what I might be.

            Comment


            • Interesting article on RS and insulin sensitivity.

              Comment


              • Very cool. Who wouldn't want body recomp without losing weight. Anyway, at least for satiation beans are stellar, that much I have always known.
                My Journal: http://www.marksdailyapple.com/forum/thread57916.html
                When I let go of what I am, I become what I might be.

                Comment


                • Mark's reasons to consume prebiotic fibers:
                  1. Because the health (and composition) of the gut flora helps determine the health of the human host (that’s us!).
                  2. Because the short chain fatty acids that are byproducts of fiber fermentation, including butyrate, propionate, and acetate, improve our health in many ways.
                  3. Because by feeding and bolstering the populations of “good bacteria,” we reduce the amount of available real estate for “bad bacteria” to set up shop.

                  Mark's tip on how to get prebiotic fibers into your diet:
                  > Consume 75-100 grams of carbs from mostly vegetables (such as the Big Ass Salad) and some fruits, plus occasional prebiotic fiber (raw onion and garlic, leeks, jerusalem artichokes, dandelion greens, raw plantains and green bananas)

                  Read more: Dear Mark: What’s the Deal with Fiber? | Mark's Daily Apple

                  It's exciting to see Mark include raw green plantains/bananas in the Primal Blueprint, though it's disappointing to not see him mention potatoes as a possible additional option. I suspect his own negative experience with potatoes is a factor in this. My currrent tolerance for potatoes is also not good, but I've seen too much positive evidence from both research and ancestral dieter reports to think of potatoes as not-Primal. I predict that potatoes (properly prepared, and especially new potatoes) will eventually be added to the list of Primal foods.

                  Now that Mark has come out in favor of prebiotics, I'm hoping that Primal dieters who dismissed RS now won't do this so easily and maybe give it a second thought (I'm not prescribing, just encouraging open-mindedness) and that no one will claim any more that RS-rich foods aren't Primal.

                  Here's yet another reason to consider Primal foods rich in bacteria-feeding resistant starch and other prebiotics (YMMV):

                  Bacteria from lean cage-mates help mice stay slim
                  But microbes are only part of the story — the effect also depends on a healthy diet.

                  Bacteria from lean cage-mates help mice stay slim : Nature News & Comment

                  NEW POTATOES (waxy, high in amylose and thus RS)

                  Immature potatoes may be sold as "new potatoes" and are particularly valued for taste. These are often harvested by the home gardener or farmer by "grabbling", i.e. pulling out the young tubers by hand while leaving the plant in place.

                  Potatoes are usually cured after harvest to improve skin-set. Skin-set is the process by which the skin of the potato becomes resistant to skinning damage. Potato tubers may be susceptible to skinning at harvest and suffer skinning damage during harvest and handling operations. Curing allows the skin to fully set and any wounds to heal. Wound-healing prevents infection and water-loss from the tubers during storage. Curing is normally done at relatively warm temperatures 50 to 60 °C (122 to 140 °F) with high humidity and good gas-exchange if at all possible.[53]

                  Potato - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
                  New potatoes (sometimes described as “waxy”) have a starch that is closer to amylose in structure than more mature potatoes, and they are somewhat less glycemic.
                  Understanding Complex Carbohydrates - All About Starches
                  https://www.marksdailyapple.com/foru...ml#post1046467
                  12-30-2012, 02:59 AM #10 Sandra in BC
                  Senior Member Join Dateec 2011
                  <<Posts:1,052 Originally Posted by dizzyorange

                  You can really eat the skin? My mom always taught me it was poisonous. I guess if I don't have to peel I can use fresh potatoes.>>

                  Just cut up and roast the red or yellow "new" potatoes...the ones with the thin skins.
                  Has anyone tried new potatoes and noticed any differences from eating those vs. more mature potatoes?
                  Last edited by Paleophil; 09-14-2013, 04:33 AM.
                  Originally posted by tatertot
                  Finding a diet you can tolerate is not the same as fixing what's wrong.
                  "our ancestors obtained resistant starch and other fermentable fibers by eating a diversity of wild plant foods, bulbs, corms, tubers, cattails, cactuses, and medicinal barks..." -Mark Sisson

                  "I've long ago tossed the idea that a particular macro ratio is poison, and am now starting to think that the EM2…is defined less by novel NADS…and more by the gut microbiome and environmental pseudocommensals ..." -Kurt Harris, MD

                  Comment


                  • Silly question, but why would potatoes not be Primal? I thought Primal avoided potatoes simply because they took up too much of the ~100g carb budget, nothing to do with whether Grok could hunt/gather them.
                    5'0" female, 45 years old. Started Primal October 31, 2011, at a skinny fat 111.5 lbs. Low weight: 99.5 lb on a fast. Gained back to 115(!) on SAD chocolate, potato chips, and stress. Currently 111.

                    Comment


                    • Mark provided several additional potential reasons to avoid potatoes in his article on the topic - Are Potatoes Paleo? | Mark&#039;s Daily Apple, including his own "joint irritation" from eating them.

                      Given that he didn't seem to have a problem with people eating them who don't have any of these issues, I'm a bit surprised he didn't at least mention potatoes in the prebiotic fiber article.
                      Originally posted by tatertot
                      Finding a diet you can tolerate is not the same as fixing what's wrong.
                      "our ancestors obtained resistant starch and other fermentable fibers by eating a diversity of wild plant foods, bulbs, corms, tubers, cattails, cactuses, and medicinal barks..." -Mark Sisson

                      "I've long ago tossed the idea that a particular macro ratio is poison, and am now starting to think that the EM2…is defined less by novel NADS…and more by the gut microbiome and environmental pseudocommensals ..." -Kurt Harris, MD

                      Comment


                      • Christ on Bike!
                        Let's not forget that Mark Sisson is another Human being just like me and you, and might not react to Potatoes, just like some people react funny to Milk, Carrots, Nuts etc.

                        "Mark doesn't like carbs, he doesn't think Cavemen would of ate it and they give him pain, therefore I won't eat it. Carbs are all the same, they are evil, Bread and French Fries are evil etc"
                        A slight jest to my post.....but, I disagree with Mark, but credit him for actually doing some research.

                        Potatoes are a sedative of the nightshade (slight Nicotine) family.
                        If Grok saw some potatoes, there is a good chance he would of ate them because it gets quite tiring chasing your Tea all the time.
                        To say all Carbs do the same job, is just blind Science.
                        Eat a Potato 3hrs before Bed for its greatest effects.
                        Combine a Potato with a Meat based meal to prevent Protein turning into fat.
                        That's right, we all have different Metabolisms, and a half Meat, half Carb combo could be better then eating twice as much Meat.
                        Potatoes are rich in Vit C and Potassium and have a purpose, just like most foods on this Green earth.

                        Please.. If you disagree with me, or have a counterargument, that's fine, but I wish people would stop saying "Mark said its not good" when clearly in some cases he is just referring to himself, doesn't know the answer.
                        In most cases, experiment yourself!
                        Last edited by marc; 09-14-2013, 10:38 AM.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by marc View Post
                          Christ on Bike!
                          Let's not forget that Mark Sisson is another Human being just like me and you, and might not react to Potatoes, just like some people react funny to Milk, Carrots, Nuts etc.

                          "Mark doesn't like carbs, he doesn't think Cavemen would of ate it and they give him pain, therefore I won't eat it. Carbs are all the same, they are evil, Bread and French Fries are evil etc"
                          A slight jest to my post.....but, I disagree with Mark, but credit him for actually doing some research.

                          Potatoes are a sedative of the nightshade (slight Nicotine) family.
                          If Grok saw some potatoes, there is a good chance he would of ate them because it gets quite tiring chasing your Tea all the time.
                          To say all Carbs do the same job, is just blind Science.
                          Eat a Potato 3hrs before Bed for its greatest effects.
                          Combine a Potato with a Meat based meal to prevent Protein turning into fat.
                          That's right, we all have different Metabolisms, and a half Meat, half Carb combo could be better then eating twice as much Meat.
                          Potatoes are rich in Vit C and Potassium and have a purpose, just like most foods on this Green earth.

                          Please.. If you disagree with me, or have a counterargument, that's fine, but I wish people would stop saying "Mark said its not good" when clearly in some cases he is just referring to himself, doesn't know the answer.
                          In most cases, experiment yourself!
                          Sisson only gives his opinion. Whatever MDA "followers" want to eat is up to them
                          I eat a lot of potatoes, especially in the form of oven baked French fries (thus my forum name). I am French, I ate tons of bread in the past. It is not evil, it is just not good food even though these damn French can make it taste divine ... the number of bread kinds in France is astronomical ... it has not always been like this because white flour had for a long time been subsidized by the state so that the baguette would remain cheap for everyone. This influenced the bread quality by a lot. Nice tasty bread is actually quite recent in France, when white flour was no longer subsidized. But wheat remains a sub-optimal food that triggers way too many issues.

                          Potatoes, unless you are sensitive to nightshades, are an amazing food and I cannot see why one would discard it. But in the end, to each his/her own

                          Comment


                          • As I understand it early drafts of paleo had a grudge against a lot of North/South American native plants because Eurasians have had fewer centuries to cultivate and tame them and thus a slightly higher allergy rate. Andean populations (e.g. Aymara) flourished on potatoes so it's definitely a YMMV item. I eat piles of them myself.
                            37//6'3"/185

                            My peculiar nutrition glossary and shopping list

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by picklepete View Post
                              As I understand it early drafts of paleo had a grudge against a lot of North/South American native plants because Eurasians have had fewer centuries to cultivate and tame them and thus a slightly higher allergy rate. Andean populations (e.g. Aymara) flourished on potatoes so it's definitely a YMMV item. I eat piles of them myself.
                              This is how I feel about nixtmilized corn. My native ancestors thrived on corn, squash and lean animals (deer and fish).

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by marc View Post
                                I wish people would stop saying "Mark said its not good" when clearly in some cases he is just referring to himself, doesn't know the answer.
                                Did someone say that "Mark said its not good"? I didn't notice it, but maybe I missed it. I don't think you're referring to my post that came right before yours, because the gist of your post seems to be the same as my post, with slightly different wording and additional detail.

                                For example, I wrote: "Given that he didn't seem to have a problem with people eating them who don't have any of these issues...." and in Mark's article I linked to, he wrote: "The Final Word (There Isn’t One): Deciding whether potatoes fit into your diet is ultimately a personal decision, but exactly how your body reacts to starch – in its current metabolic state, which, remember, is not set in stone – should be the major determinant." Read more: Are Potatoes Paleo? | Mark's Daily Apple

                                BTW, What does "Christ on bike" mean? Never heard that one before.

                                In most cases, experiment yourself!
                                I agree! That's what I find it comes down to on most questions in my case, and that's what Mark indicated in his article too.

                                FWIW, I have been trying to find ways to incorporate potatoes and other foods into my diet, have benefited from unmodified potato starch, and predicted in my earlier post that potatoes (properly prepared and as tolerated) will eventually be added to the list of Primal foods, so we seem to be on the same page on potatoes.

                                I also find it interesting that Petro of Hyperlipid, Paul Jaminet, Chris Kresser, Stephan Guyenet, Dr. Kurt Harris, Richard Nikoley, Melissa McEwen and Otzi at this forum all include potatoes in their diets. I think that another forum member, Zach, eats potatoes too and I remember seeing someone talk about there being a "potato hack" thread at this forum? Potatoes seem to be becoming increasingly acceptable in Primal/Paleo/ancestral, LC and similar circles. Loren Cordain and Ray Audette were the only early prominent Paleo diet advocates I noticed forbid potatoes. Walter Voegtlin's book forbade potatoes, but it didn't receive much notice until after the Paleo diet movement got going and people started searching to see if anyone had figured it out earlier.

                                Even Dr. Cordain OK'd sweet potatoes for people who are active and not metabolically deranged. They're not quite the same as potatoes, being in a different family, but they are both starchy tubers.

                                Did someone give you some flack in the past either here or elsewhere about eating potatoes?
                                Last edited by Paleophil; 09-15-2013, 02:15 PM.
                                Originally posted by tatertot
                                Finding a diet you can tolerate is not the same as fixing what's wrong.
                                "our ancestors obtained resistant starch and other fermentable fibers by eating a diversity of wild plant foods, bulbs, corms, tubers, cattails, cactuses, and medicinal barks..." -Mark Sisson

                                "I've long ago tossed the idea that a particular macro ratio is poison, and am now starting to think that the EM2…is defined less by novel NADS…and more by the gut microbiome and environmental pseudocommensals ..." -Kurt Harris, MD

                                Comment

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