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  • Originally posted by Leida View Post
    otzi, there is a Russian cold drink, called kisel, that is basically berry or juice thickened with potato starch. To activate the starch, it is heated, but then drunk cooled down & consumed cold. Does RS property returns if the potato starch was heated and then cooled again? If yes, that would be one heck of a tasty way to add RS!
    How interesting! I'd never heard of Kisel, so I Googled it--just as you said, berry juice thickened with potato starch. All the descriptions of it say the potato starch is added to boiling juice, then drunk hot or cold. In this fashion, there would be next to zero RS. If you added the potato starch to cold liquid and stirred it, it would have mega-RS, but it wouldn't be thick like I imagine Kisel is supposed to be. bummer! It does sound delicious, though! Here's a description from Wikipedia:

    In the Russian Primary Chronicle there is a story of how kissel saved a 10th-century city, besieged by nomadic Pechenegs in 997 (the first mention of this type of dessert). When the food in the city became scarce and a hunger started, the people of the city followed an advice of one old man, who told them to make kissel from the remnants of grain, and a sweet drink from the last mead they could find. Then they filled a wooden container with the kissel, and another one with the mead drink, put those containers into the holes in the ground and made up two fake wells over them. When the Pechenegian ambassadors came into the city, they saw how the Russians took the food from those "wells", and the Pechenegs even were allowed to taste the sweet kissel dessert and mead beverage. Impressed by that show and degustation, Pechenegs decided to lift the siege and to go away, having concluded that the Russians were mysteriously fed from the earth itself.

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    • Originally posted by WeldingHank View Post
      I know yuca has a lot of RS, anyone know how it changes when roasted/cooled? I just made up a whole bunch of roasted yuca for the week (5lb of frozen yuca is $4!) nice crispy outside and soft gooey insides...
      I'd imagine it has about the same as potato, approx 2-5% of the weight would be RS (100g of cooked yuca = 2-5g RS). I'm basing that on the fact that yuca root is used to make tapioca starch which is almost identical to potato starch. I've never had cooked yuca, sounds good! I wonder if more traditional preparations like fufu and dried or fermented yuca wouldn't be loaded with RS, though.

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      • Hey, this reminds me of this danish red thingy that is quite unpronounceable : "rød grød med fløde"

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        • Originally posted by FrenchFry View Post
          Hey, this reminds me of this danish red thingy that is quite unpronounceable : "rød grød med fløde"
          I can see an American in Copenhagen asking a the poor waitress: "Can I have me one of those ROD GROD MED FLOW-DEE thingies" And notice he said in real loud, in all caps, because that helps stupid foreigners understand their own language better.

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          • Originally posted by otzi View Post
            I'd imagine it has about the same as potato, approx 2-5% of the weight would be RS (100g of cooked yuca = 2-5g RS). I'm basing that on the fact that yuca root is used to make tapioca starch which is almost identical to potato starch. I've never had cooked yuca, sounds good! I wonder if more traditional preparations like fufu and dried or fermented yuca wouldn't be loaded with RS, though.
            Yuca around here is generally had fried like french fries (large puerto rican/dominican population around here). I went the roasted route to make up the whole 5lb bag quickly (about 1 hour start to finish for 5lbs)

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            • In this fashion, there would be next to zero RS. If you added the potato starch to cold liquid and stirred it, it would have mega-RS, but it wouldn't be thick like I imagine Kisel is supposed to be. bummer!
              Double bummer. Oh, well. And, yeah, those Pechenegs were pesky devils.

              I guess, I will stick with okroshka, now that I make water kefir for RS's in traditional style. Now, that's a great way to consume cold potatoes.
              My Journal: http://www.marksdailyapple.com/forum/thread57916.html
              When I let go of what I am, I become what I might be.

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              • Originally posted by WeldingHank View Post
                Yuca around here is generally had fried like french fries (large puerto rican/dominican population around here). I went the roasted route to make up the whole 5lb bag quickly (about 1 hour start to finish for 5lbs)
                Yuca and Cassava is the same thing, right?

                A couple ways I'm seeing it was traditionally eaten around the world that would have lots of RS:

                Haiti - The root vegetable yuca is grated, rinsed well, dried, salted, and pressed to form flat cakes about 4 inches (10 cm) in diameter and 1⁄2 inches (1 cm) thick

                Suriname - Telo is a popular dish which is salted fish and cassava, where the cassava is steamed and deepfried.

                Amazon Basin - cassava is a main ingredient in chicha, a traditional fermented drink produced by the indigenous Quichua population often made by chewing up and spitting out the raw cassava which is subsequently fermented for a few hours to a couple of days.

                Venezuelan - Casabe is made by roasting ground cassava spread out as meter wide pancake over a hot surface (plancha) or any flattop grill. The result has the consistency of a cracker, and is broken into small pieces for consumption.

                West Africa - The cassava is grated, pressed, fermented and fried then mixed with boiling water to form a thick paste.

                Congo - manioc root is pounded into a paste, fermented and cooked in banana or other forest leaves. The resulting hard packets make for good travel food due to their long shelf-life. This form of manioc is called kwanga in Kikongo and Lingala.

                Vietnam - Cassava is planted almost everywhere in Vietnam and its root is amongst the cheapest sources of food there. The fresh roots are sliced into thin pieces and then dried in the sun.

                But mostly it seems like it's used just like potatoes: roasted, fried, boiled, or mashed...all forms that destroy most RS. Steamed and then roasted is probably the best way to preserve the RS as it uses drier cooking methods.

                Comment


                • Originally posted by otzi View Post
                  Yuca and Cassava is the same thing, right?

                  A couple ways I'm seeing it was traditionally eaten around the world that would have lots of RS:

                  Haiti - The root vegetable yuca is grated, rinsed well, dried, salted, and pressed to form flat cakes about 4 inches (10 cm) in diameter and 1⁄2 inches (1 cm) thick

                  Suriname - Telo is a popular dish which is salted fish and cassava, where the cassava is steamed and deepfried.

                  Amazon Basin - cassava is a main ingredient in chicha, a traditional fermented drink produced by the indigenous Quichua population often made by chewing up and spitting out the raw cassava which is subsequently fermented for a few hours to a couple of days.

                  Venezuelan - Casabe is made by roasting ground cassava spread out as meter wide pancake over a hot surface (plancha) or any flattop grill. The result has the consistency of a cracker, and is broken into small pieces for consumption.

                  West Africa - The cassava is grated, pressed, fermented and fried then mixed with boiling water to form a thick paste.

                  Congo - manioc root is pounded into a paste, fermented and cooked in banana or other forest leaves. The resulting hard packets make for good travel food due to their long shelf-life. This form of manioc is called kwanga in Kikongo and Lingala.

                  Vietnam - Cassava is planted almost everywhere in Vietnam and its root is amongst the cheapest sources of food there. The fresh roots are sliced into thin pieces and then dried in the sun.

                  But mostly it seems like it's used just like potatoes: roasted, fried, boiled, or mashed...all forms that destroy most RS. Steamed and then roasted is probably the best way to preserve the RS as it uses drier cooking methods.

                  Casabe is available in every bodega on every street corner in my city LOL.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by otzi View Post
                    The BRM tapioca starch/flour is almost identical to potato starch in RS content--roughly 80% by weight giving 1TBS about 8g of RS. Just remember, it has to be ingested as is--not heated. Mix it with something cold.
                    Thanks for answering. I have been mixing it in with my morning (cold) kefir.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by WeldingHank View Post
                      Casabe is available in every bodega on every street corner in my city LOL.
                      Is it good? Cooking all the moisture out of potatoes at high temps, as in roasting or deep frying, appears to preserve a lot of RS. That's why I figured this would be a good way to prepare cassava with higher RS. The worst way (in RS terms) to prepare a food is by boiling. Potato chips (US Style) are one of the highest RS foods most people will eat, too bad about the crappy oils usually involved.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by otzi View Post
                        Is it good? Cooking all the moisture out of potatoes at high temps, as in roasting or deep frying, appears to preserve a lot of RS. That's why I figured this would be a good way to prepare cassava with higher RS. The worst way (in RS terms) to prepare a food is by boiling. Potato chips (US Style) are one of the highest RS foods most people will eat, too bad about the crappy oils usually involved.
                        It tastes like a dry, almost flavorless cracker. Very simple, and will take on the taste of almost anything you put on it. The dominicans usually eat it with olive oil alongside their beef stews.

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                        • Originally posted by Paleophil View Post
                          Do you have a link to Petro's positive comments about RS? I couldn't find any. The closest I found was his comments on the potato diet.

                          I also couldn't find where Fanatic Cook talked about diminishing returns from RS (Petro wrote: "Fanatic Cook's love of resistant starch and her puzzlement about diminishing returns. Gut bacteria control our metabolism pretty effectively when we eat fiber or resistant starch.") Do you know where that is?
                          I meant Peter reversed his stance on gut microbes, not RS. Look at his series on 'Who's Fat is it?' and the follow-ups to that series.

                          I'm not sure about the diminishing returns, but I assume it is in regards to more is not better. Many studies showed that 10-30g/day was a good amount, but 40-50g+ just caused bulkier stools and starch in feces.

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                          • Sorry Otzi, I tried to find where Peter reversed his stance on gut microbes and I don't see it here:

                            Hyperlipid: Fiaf: Who's fat is it anyway? DECEMBER 10, 2007

                            Nor in the follow-ups. Instead, I found that he doubled-down on his bet that prebiotics are not necessary and possibly harmful here:

                            "these findings suggest that the gut microbiota contributes to mammalian adiposity by regulating more than one node within the metabolic network that controls bioenergetics. Manipulating microbial characteristics in ways that impact calorie harvest from a diet, and/or Fiaf expression, or Fiaf-mediated control of Pgc-1alpha, may represent new strategies for modifying host energy balance to promote health"

                            I can certainly go with the first suggestion, but my own decision to use a high fat diet, however logical, may be different to what may be tried by the mainstream medics.

                            Tinkering with Fiaf at the gut wall level MIGHT be safe, after all not eating for a day bumps the levels up. So perhaps here is a target for a slimming drug. But what will happen if you bump up a starvation hormone, with it's cascade of effects down stream which increase fat oxidation, yet continue to feed a diet based on glucose? I have a bad feeling about this. It is very suggestive of clofibrate, pioglitazone and rosiglitazone, none of which feature on my must-have list. You are well in to the realms of the law of Unintended Consequences with this approach.

                            What about that last suggestion of tinkering with Pgc-1alpha? Just have a look at the stub in wikipedia to get some idea of what this co factor does.

                            I'm not sure I would personally want to start tinkering with a massive metabolic control switch, many of the normal effects of which are still unknown, in the hope of improving human health.

                            Unintended Consequences anyone?

                            Eggs and butter for breakfast seems a much safer option.

                            Peter

                            http://high-fat-nutrition.blogspot.c...here-next.html
                            and here:

                            Jun 23, 2008 - The resistant starch is of little interest. I must eat some for the occasional windy days after potatoes. This is accidental, I've no intetion of feeding my gut bacteria more than I have to.

                            Hyperlipid: Opioid pictures
                            high-fat-nutrition.blogspot.com/2008/06/opioid-pictures.html?
                            Any clue where it might be?

                            Peter made a good point about our gut bacteria being more interested in promoting their own health than ours. It's an open question as to how much they are symbiotic vs. parasitic. Given that they've been with us for eons, my guess is that the best ones are more beneficial than harmful up to a certain point, but Peter seems to view them as neutral at best and possibly harmful in the longer run. It is possible. For example, maybe they help us to thrive through reproductive years and somewhat beyond, but in later years become detrimental? I've seen that argument made re: helminthic worms.

                            I'm playing a bit of devil's advocate here because no one other than Peter is making decent arguments against RS and Peter is not actively discussing it, so I'm arguing against my own current approach to see if it stands up to scrutiny.
                            Last edited by Paleophil; 09-10-2013, 04:57 PM.
                            Originally posted by tatertot
                            Finding a diet you can tolerate is not the same as fixing what's wrong.
                            "our ancestors obtained resistant starch and other fermentable fibers by eating a diversity of wild plant foods, bulbs, corms, tubers, cattails, cactuses, and medicinal barks..." -Mark Sisson

                            "I've long ago tossed the idea that a particular macro ratio is poison, and am now starting to think that the EM2…is defined less by novel NADS…and more by the gut microbiome and environmental pseudocommensals ..." -Kurt Harris, MD

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Paleophil View Post
                              Sorry Otzi, I tried to find where Peter reversed his stance on gut microbes and I don't see it here:
                              I poked around a bit and found these references:

                              2010
                              Now, I'm no great enthusiast for pre- or pro-biotics, but I do eat a fair amount of cheese, soured cream and high fat yogurt. The last of those occasionally in large amounts. So eating real-food dairy accidentally includes plenty of germs. Germs to which we are well adapted. Gut bacteria are normal to humans and lactobacilli are amongst the first bacteria to colonise the gut of a healthy infant, presumably because its mother provides lactose (and pre-biotics too, hmmmm). For humans who are not genetically adapted to adult lactose intake, are we borrowing the gene for lactose tolerance from the microbiome in our gut? Is it possible to lose lactose tolerance if we lose lactobacilli during the major bacterial starve-out that LC probably produces?

                              2007
                              Both improved symptoms. As fiber is of no use to humans and it appears to feed the bacteria that cause IBS, including good old klebsiella, you have to wonder where the medical fascination with fiber comes from...

                              We all know where fiber ends up, why suffer the gut problems it causes as it gets there?
                              It seems he just mostly ignores any role gut flora plays in human health.

                              Comment


                              • OK, so Peter identified a specific theoretical risk from eating "fiber" - IBS produced by klebsiella. I tried to find info on this and found claims that there are plenty of studies showing this, but didn't find any actual studies that make a clear direct connection between RS and klebsiella. This article The Link between Ankylosing Spondylitis, Crohn’s Disease, Klebsiella, and Starch Consumption pointed to this study as evidence of the klebsiella-RS link:

                                71. B. Kleessen, G. Stoof, J. Proll, D. Schmiedl, J. Noack, and M. Blaut, “Feeding resistant starch affects fecal and cecal microflora and short-chain fatty acids in rats,” Journal of Animal Science, vol. 75, no. 9, pp. 2453–2462, 1997. View at Scopus Feeding resistant starch affects fecal and cecal ... [J Anim Sci. 1997] - PubMed - NCBI

                                but the study conclusion actually suggests the opposite, that "Stimulation of bifidobacteria, lactobacilli, and SCFA [via RS] may be useful for the suppression of pathogenic organisms in the colon."

                                How odd. Have you found anything re: RS and klebsiella?
                                Originally posted by tatertot
                                Finding a diet you can tolerate is not the same as fixing what's wrong.
                                "our ancestors obtained resistant starch and other fermentable fibers by eating a diversity of wild plant foods, bulbs, corms, tubers, cattails, cactuses, and medicinal barks..." -Mark Sisson

                                "I've long ago tossed the idea that a particular macro ratio is poison, and am now starting to think that the EM2…is defined less by novel NADS…and more by the gut microbiome and environmental pseudocommensals ..." -Kurt Harris, MD

                                Comment

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