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  • Originally posted by Neckhammer View Post
    So sweet potato eaters ... nobody is concerned about this:
    Yes, I am aware of the antinutrients in sweet potato, which is one reason why I don't eat them often (and my tolerance seems to be lower than most, etc.--others like the Kitavans apparently thrive on large amounts of them and other tubers - yam, sweet potato, taro, tapioca, staffanlindeberg.com/TheKitavaStudy.html - I wonder if the wide variety helps avoid excess accumulation of antinutrients?) and the one time I did eat raw sweet potato I soaked it overnight (which also reduces the starch content, which I now wonder whether that is a bit counterproductive in that way, given the apparent benefits of RS). Are you not also concerned about the antinutrients in white potato and their link to more than a little tummy grumbling, including 25 deaths from potato poisoning (http://www.foodsafetywatch.com/public/154.cfm)?

    The New Guineans who died from enteritis necroticans were eating lots of cooked sweet potatoes with a low-protein diet, so even eating lots of cooked sweet potatoes may be a concern. There is also correlation with "poor food hygiene, episodic meat feasting, staple diets containing trypsin inhibitors (sweet potatoes), and infection by Ascaris parasites which secrete a trypsin inhibitor" and the infection may be "spread through contaminated meat (especially pork) and perhaps by peanuts" (Clostridial necrotizing enteritis - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia). It occurs often enough in New Guinea to have a name - “pigbel”: "A condition linked to undercooked pork infected with Clostridium perfringens type C, consumed in 3–4-day pork-eating ‘marathons’; pigbel is endemic in the New Guinea highlands, affecting children with a poor immune response to clostridial toxins, decreased proteases, protein-poor diet, high in sweet potatoes, which contain trypsin inhibitors. Mortality Up to 40%." pigbel - definition of pigbel in the Medical dictionary - by the Free Online Medical Dictionary, Thesaurus and Encyclopedia.

    Plantains seem to be the best whole food source of RS available to me, as they have both the highest RS content and are considered effectively nontoxic. I dry them first to take away the astringency.

    Fresh raw potatoes caused a burning sensation in my tongue, so I tried drying them to see if that would make a difference. I tried a few slices of the partially air-dried potatoes and got the same burning. Does anyone else experience the tongue burning? At least one other person reported it: Why do raw potatoes burn my tongue?

    It could be coincidence, but after eating the raw dried potato slices I also later noticed some of the lower extremity pain and other symptoms I get when I eat too much cooked potatoes. I'll let them dry thoroughly before trying again.

    For whatever reason, I didn't notice any symptoms the one time in the past I tried soaked raw sweet potato, even though I ate more of it than the raw potato slices.
    Last edited by Paleophil; 08-22-2013, 10:09 AM.
    Originally posted by tatertot
    Finding a diet you can tolerate is not the same as fixing what's wrong.
    "our ancestors obtained resistant starch and other fermentable fibers by eating a diversity of wild plant foods, bulbs, corms, tubers, cattails, cactuses, and medicinal barks..." -Mark Sisson

    "I've long ago tossed the idea that a particular macro ratio is poison, and am now starting to think that the EM2…is defined less by novel NADS…and more by the gut microbiome and environmental pseudocommensals ..." -Kurt Harris, MD

    Comment


    • I thoroughly dried the potato slices and tried 3 of the little slices. My tongue still burned a little and then the roof of my mouth became itchy. Could this be an allergic/sensitivity reaction? If so, is it best to just avoid raw potato, or should I try a hormetic/desensitizing approach akin to allergy shots where I try to gradually adapt my system to be less sensitive and more robust to raw potato, by occasionally eating a little bit?

      This reaction does not occur after consuming potato starch or plantains, so I still have those options.
      Originally posted by tatertot
      Finding a diet you can tolerate is not the same as fixing what's wrong.
      "our ancestors obtained resistant starch and other fermentable fibers by eating a diversity of wild plant foods, bulbs, corms, tubers, cattails, cactuses, and medicinal barks..." -Mark Sisson

      "I've long ago tossed the idea that a particular macro ratio is poison, and am now starting to think that the EM2…is defined less by novel NADS…and more by the gut microbiome and environmental pseudocommensals ..." -Kurt Harris, MD

      Comment


      • I get the exact same thing when I eat apples, cherries, apricots, and raw almonds. I had a small bite of wife's caramel apple at the fair last night--back of throat itched like crazy, ears itched, eyes itched. Lasted about 20 minutes.

        One time I was peeling potatoes kind of fast, lots of juice spraying about--my eyes burned and swelled like I was having a histamine reaction to something in the peels. If I eat raw potatoes, every now and then I will get a slight burning sensation on tongue, but it doesn't last long.

        Comment


        • I don't get that when I eat those foods. Could that mean that you have some sensitivity to something in those foods and I have some sensitivity to potatoes?

          I like your term "prebiotics" for fermentable fibers like resistant starch. Looks like it's already in use: https://www.google.com/#q=prebiotics. I've got some more names for resistant starch: ketogenic starch, anti-oxidant starch, and anti-inflammatory starch, based on info like this...

          "So what is this evil chemical which blocks glucose oxidation even in the face of hyperinsulinaemia?
          Beta hydroxy butyrate." - Peter Dobromylskyj, Hyperlipid: Physiological insulin restisance: Guess what?
          "The fiber (which includes resistant starch) that reaches the lower GI tract is broken down into short-chain fatty acids, such as butyric acid, which, when oxidized, become ketones, such as d-beta-hydroxybutyrate, that can then be used as energy. Ketones may therefore play a role in the lower-GI-tract anticancer protective properties of butyric acid." (Ketone Bodies in Energy, Neuroprotection, and Possibly in the Effects of Dietary Restriction, Volume 6 No. 4 • September 2003, Ketone Bodies in Energy, Neuroprotection, . . .
          "Last fall, I was toying around with the Potato Hack and mentioned it on Paul Jaminet's Perfect Health Diet blog. Paul mentioned that part of the effectiveness of the Potato Hack undoubtedly was due to the butyric acid and short-chain fatty acids (SCFA) from the resistant starch in the potatoes." - Richard Nikoley, freetheanimal.com/2013/04/resistant-assimilation-resistance.html

          "I have confirmation from some N=1s out there that a ketogenic dieter can remain in ketosis and have zero BG spike consuming up to 30 grams of resistant starch (Bob's Red Mill Potato Starch) per day either along with a Z/VLC meal, or all by itself stirred in water." - Richard Nikoley, http://freetheanimal.com/2013/07/bea...nt-starch.html

          (emphases mine)

          Another RS success story:
          Judi // Sep 2, 2013 at 15:35

          I am having some real success lowering my fasting (I am prediabetic) by drinking the PS mixed with kefir around 3-4 am when I hit the bathroom. I mix it up before bed and keep it on the sink. Over the past week my sugar has been 15 to 20 points lower even if I sleep in. This morning it was 84 and yesterday 91. It seems to be stopping the surge of glucose from happening. Whatever, I am really happy! I was originally going to shell out for the Super Starch, but this is obviously going to save me a lot of money. Thanks for that.

          http://freetheanimal.com/2013/08/res...comment-535416
          Last edited by Paleophil; 09-05-2013, 05:31 AM.
          Originally posted by tatertot
          Finding a diet you can tolerate is not the same as fixing what's wrong.
          "our ancestors obtained resistant starch and other fermentable fibers by eating a diversity of wild plant foods, bulbs, corms, tubers, cattails, cactuses, and medicinal barks..." -Mark Sisson

          "I've long ago tossed the idea that a particular macro ratio is poison, and am now starting to think that the EM2…is defined less by novel NADS…and more by the gut microbiome and environmental pseudocommensals ..." -Kurt Harris, MD

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Paleophil View Post
            I like your term "prebiotics" for fermentable fibers like resistant starch.
            I don't know if you've kept on on Konstantin's backpedalling in guest blog, but he did say one thing that is very true:

            Natural vegetables don’t contain a lot of fiber unless you consume them in crazy amounts. I’ll give you a sampling:

            1. Green leaf lettuce — 1.3 grams of fiber per 100 grams;
            2. Boiled potatoes without skin — 1.4 grams of fiber per 100 grams;
            3. Cucumbers, peeled, raw — 0.7 g/100 g
            4. Row tomatoes, with skin — 1.2g/100 g
            5. Onions, raw — 1.7 g/100 g
            6. Cooked broccoli — 3.3 g /100 g
            7. Carrorts, raw — 2.8 g/100 g

            So, as you can see, even the foods that are considered fiber-heavy, such as broccoli or carrots, are pretty moderate. So if you eat almost 2 lbs of the above vegetables, you still will get only 12.4 grams of fiber.

            That’s why I don’t say anywhere that you shouldn’t eat vegetables, and I do prefer vegetables to fruits because they contain significantly less sugar.
            . Konstantin Monastyrsky wrote on September 4th, 2013.Read more: Dietary Fiber Is Bad for Sex – That’s the Only Claim About It That Isn’t a Myth | Mark's Daily Apple
            It is darn hard to get enough prebiotics from food unless really trying hard and targeting inulin and resistant starch. The fiber contents listed above are not necessarily all prebiotic fiber, either. I came across a term 'carbohydrate gap' in researching prebiotics. It describes the fact that we need about 20-30g/day of prebiotics, but can only get about 5g from modern foods. The use of supplementary RS and targeting RS rich foods is an easy way to close this gap.

            Comment


            • After I checked out some of Konstantin's claims and sources in the past, I no longer pay much attention to what he writes, despite having good reason to be biased in his favor. From what you've reported, it sounds like that was a good decision.
              Originally posted by tatertot
              Finding a diet you can tolerate is not the same as fixing what's wrong.
              "our ancestors obtained resistant starch and other fermentable fibers by eating a diversity of wild plant foods, bulbs, corms, tubers, cattails, cactuses, and medicinal barks..." -Mark Sisson

              "I've long ago tossed the idea that a particular macro ratio is poison, and am now starting to think that the EM2…is defined less by novel NADS…and more by the gut microbiome and environmental pseudocommensals ..." -Kurt Harris, MD

              Comment


              • Otzi, It looks to me like Peter of Hyperlipid won't be writing anything positive about resistant starch, based on this past blog:

                Hyperlipid: Fiber, inulin and cancer

                Peter wrote: 'this dropped out of Pubcrawler today. If you are a ApcMin/+ mouse you can choose you carcinogen from wheat bran or apple pulp (that's the healthy fiber from healthy fruit, apples):

                "In conclusion, both types of resistant carbohydrates increased polyp number and tumour burden and this was associated with elevated epithelial cell proliferation and crypt fission."'
                "Fermentation of carbohydrates in the colon can stimulate cell proliferation and could thus be a cancer risk."

                Resistant carbohydrates stimulate cell proliferati... [Br J Nutr. 2008] - PubMed - NCBI
                What do you make of this?
                Originally posted by tatertot
                Finding a diet you can tolerate is not the same as fixing what's wrong.
                "our ancestors obtained resistant starch and other fermentable fibers by eating a diversity of wild plant foods, bulbs, corms, tubers, cattails, cactuses, and medicinal barks..." -Mark Sisson

                "I've long ago tossed the idea that a particular macro ratio is poison, and am now starting to think that the EM2…is defined less by novel NADS…and more by the gut microbiome and environmental pseudocommensals ..." -Kurt Harris, MD

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Paleophil View Post
                  What do you make of this?
                  Just maybe these mice are not meant to eat the stuff they gave them ? ...

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Paleophil View Post
                    Otzi, It looks to me like Peter of Hyperlipid won't be writing anything positive about resistant starch, based on this past blog:

                    What do you make of this?
                    You almost had me there! I thought this was his latest post! When I saw it was from 2008, I calmed down a bit.

                    Petro is of the same mind as KonMon--a non-believer in the importance of gut bacteria. From the comments from blog you linked above:

                    The SCFA made by gut bacteria belong to the gut bacteria. They're not ours. The microbiota will allow us a little of their butyrate but the bulk is sent directly to our liver and converted to tryglycerides. These are then stored as fat by activation of lipoprotein lipase. The whole cascade is controlled by Fiaf (Fasting induced adipose factor), which is to a significant extent controlled by the gut bacteria. Feed the bacteria and they make fat (butyrate), but they FORCE you store it. Now I like butyrate, it's a fat after all, it will induce fat oxidation, and I LOVE fat oxidation. I'll eat butter 'til I'm not hungry (I was going to say 'til the cows come home but...). Of course butyrate from butter feeds me directly, not via my bacteria, and via my small intestine not my colon. No gas!
                    I'm pretty sure that Petro reversed his stance several times since then, not sure where he is now. But really, to find mice who are genetically predisposed to colon cancer anything would probably lead to colon cancer, would it not?

                    Also in the comments
                    You might find Bix’s take on resistant starch interesting:

                    Resistant Starch

                    Types of Resistant Starch

                    RS Reduces Colon Cancer

                    Bacteria and Blood Sugar
                    If you read these links, people were getting interested in RS in 2007 and before, but the problem was getting enough of it. The recommendations always were 'healthy whole grains, cold potatoes and beans'. I almost gave up on RS until I discovered plantains, green bananas, and just plain raw potato/tapioca starch.

                    Comment


                    • Do you have a link to Petro's positive comments about RS? I couldn't find any. The closest I found was his comments on the potato diet.

                      I also couldn't find where Fanatic Cook talked about diminishing returns from RS (Petro wrote: "Fanatic Cook's love of resistant starch and her puzzlement about diminishing returns. Gut bacteria control our metabolism pretty effectively when we eat fiber or resistant starch.") Do you know where that is?
                      Originally posted by tatertot
                      Finding a diet you can tolerate is not the same as fixing what's wrong.
                      "our ancestors obtained resistant starch and other fermentable fibers by eating a diversity of wild plant foods, bulbs, corms, tubers, cattails, cactuses, and medicinal barks..." -Mark Sisson

                      "I've long ago tossed the idea that a particular macro ratio is poison, and am now starting to think that the EM2…is defined less by novel NADS…and more by the gut microbiome and environmental pseudocommensals ..." -Kurt Harris, MD

                      Comment


                      • I know yuca has a lot of RS, anyone know how it changes when roasted/cooled? I just made up a whole bunch of roasted yuca for the week (5lb of frozen yuca is $4!) nice crispy outside and soft gooey insides...

                        Comment


                        • otzi, I don't have potato starch in my pantry at the moment, but I do have Bob's Red Mill tapioca flour/starch. What is the RS content of tapioca flour?

                          Comment


                          • This came from Resistant Starch Self Experimentation Prelude: Sisson, Konstantin Monastyrsky, and my Commenters | Free The Animal

                            A commenter said:

                            “I think that Mark Sisson and Paul Jaminet will both say that eating as they describe will provide one with all the pro- and prebiotics one needs to thrive.

                            I think differently. I think their plans are a good start, and adequate for long-term good health, but more indepth looks at the role of prebiotics on proper gut function, and evidence from our ancestors petrified poop, shows that our gut microbes evolved on a diet high in fermentable fiber (prebiotics) and that about 20g per day is needed to optimize the growth of beneficial microbes and keep pathogenic types at bay.

                            A Primal Blueprint Big Ass Salad, or a Perfect Health Diet day with one pound of veggies, depending on food choices, could net someone about 5g max in prebiotics.

                            Take a look at this paper: http://naldc.nal.usda.gov/download/34692/PDF

                            It shows the average intakes of inulin and oligofructose (the main non-RS prebiotics) for SAD eaters in the mid-90′s. The average intake was about 5g–with 70% of that coming from wheat products!

                            The advice of the 80′s and 90′s to ‘eat more fiber’ really did nothing to increase our intake of prebiotic fermentable fiber, but led to the inclusion of all types of filler fibers in bakery treats and snacks–to make them ‘healthy’ snacks.

                            So, when you adopt a paleo style diet, whether PHD or Primal Blueprint, you take away grains and replace them with more veggies, but at a deficit of overall prebiotic fibers. Then we demonized legumes, potatoes, rice, and starchy fruits like bananas and plantains which takes away any hope of resistant starch for prebiotics.

                            What I am proposing, is that a healthier way of eating can be had by continuing with the Big Ass Salads, but also add in known RS sources: beans, bananas, plantains, potatoes, rice, as desired, and a bit of raw starch if you are slacking in the real food compartment or just want to up the ante a bit.”

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by howardroark View Post
                              otzi, I don't have potato starch in my pantry at the moment, but I do have Bob's Red Mill tapioca flour/starch. What is the RS content of tapioca flour?
                              The BRM tapioca starch/flour is almost identical to potato starch in RS content--roughly 80% by weight giving 1TBS about 8g of RS. Just remember, it has to be ingested as is--not heated. Mix it with something cold.

                              Comment


                              • otzi, there is a Russian cold drink, called kisel, that is basically berry or juice thickened with potato starch. To activate the starch, it is heated, but then drunk cooled down & consumed cold. Does RS property returns if the potato starch was heated and then cooled again? If yes, that would be one heck of a tasty way to add RS!
                                My Journal: http://www.marksdailyapple.com/forum/thread57916.html
                                When I let go of what I am, I become what I might be.

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