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  • Originally posted by Paleophil View Post
    Thanks, as soon as I saw the X-Ray Diffraction Pattern and put that together with the crystalline cell structure, I thought "fractal." Sure enough, resistant starches have a fractal surface and porous structure and apparently have higher fractal dimensions than more easily digested starches:
    Glad you found that useful, I never put it together with fractal design of mitochondria...

    Here are a couple studies on RS and specific microbiome populations:

    These findings might have an important implication for large bowel physiology since Cassidy et al. (1994) showed that there were strong inverse associations between the incidence of colorectal cancer and starch intake or the sum of dietary fiber and RS intake, while dietary fiber alone did not show any significant relationships.

    Volunteers were provided successively with a control diet, diets high in resistant starch (RS) or non-starch polysaccharides (NSPs) and a reduced carbohydrate weight loss (WL) diet, over 10 weeks.

    The second one was pretty cool:
    In contrast to these responses to RS, there was little evidence that the high NSP diet resulted in major alterations in the composition of the faecal microbiota. In part, however, this may reflect the fact that a smaller increase was achieved in NSP intake (1.5-fold) than with RS intake (4.8-fold) when compared with the M diet. It is possible that larger changes in specific NSP components would affect the populations of specific groups of colonic bacteria, as was observed with RS. Significant decreases were observed for C. aerofaciens and for the E. rectale group on the WL diet. The WL changes do not show a simple relationship with RS and NSP intakes, and it is possible that the increased dietary protein content of this diet might have a role in altering microbiota composition.

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    • Originally posted by otzi View Post
      I'd like to hear more about your 'fiber mix'. I think you could make your own with a mixture of 25% Psyllium Husk Powder and 75% Potato starch (or even Hi-Maize). I don't think there is anything wrong with Hi-Maize, I just think people are deluded if they think it's going to be 'healthy' to use it in baking alongside wheat flour, or found as an ingredient in store-bought bread. If you want to use Hi-Maize, add it raw to a smoothie or glass of milk/kefir.
      Hi Otzi, thanks for your reply. That is what I use: About Fibrefine - Sukrin Ltd
      It is a mix of fibers and RS. I don't bake with it, I just use it as a supplement in my yogurt once in a while.

      EDIT: oh yeah, I also buy their bread mix : http://sukrin.org/low-carb-bread/about/
      Easy to prepare and quite good! But again, I am not a bread addict at all, it is only once in a while, when I find the package in the local health store.
      Last edited by FrenchFry; 08-20-2013, 01:28 PM.

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      • Originally posted by FrenchFry View Post
        Hi Otzi, thanks for your reply. That is what I use: About Fibrefine - Sukrin Ltd
        It is a mix of fibers and RS. I don't bake with it, I just use it as a supplement in my yogurt once in a while.

        EDIT: oh yeah, I also buy their bread mix : About the low carb bread - Sukrin Ltd
        Easy to prepare and quite good! But again, I am not a bread addict at all, it is only once in a while, when I find the package in the local health store.

        The Sukrin Fibrefine stuff is just RS from corn, approx 6g per TBS. Plain old potato starch is probably a lot cheaper and almost 8g per TBS. The Fibrefine is probably an OK product. The bread actually looks pretty good and I would try it if I had the chance. Ingredients are:
        Seeds and kernels (Psyllium, sunflower, sesame, pumpkin, flax), fibre (from sugar beet and peas, Fibrefine resistant corn starch), whole egg powder, pea protein, sweetener Sukrin (erythritol), raising agents (E450, E500), low-sodium salt (sodium chloride and potassium chloride).

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        • Being a 1x/week cheating low carber I decided to test this out today. Since I was slicing tators for the boys french fries anyhow. Ate one whole uncooked potato 6 hours ago. Like many I've snagged a few pieces of raw while mom was cooking, but I've never eaten a whole one I don't think. So this is like how much RS fermenting now? 30-50g right? Anyhow, no noticeable belly change yet. We shall see

          Oh, BTW.... when reading up on the raw potato deal seems the sweet potato and yams could be more problematic than a raw russet huh?

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Neckhammer View Post
            Being a 1x/week cheating low carber I decided to test this out today. Since I was slicing tators for the boys french fries anyhow. Ate one whole uncooked potato 6 hours ago. Like many I've snagged a few pieces of raw while mom was cooking, but I've never eaten a whole one I don't think. So this is like how much RS fermenting now? 30-50g right? Anyhow, no noticeable belly change yet. We shall see

            Oh, BTW.... when reading up on the raw potato deal seems the sweet potato and yams could be more problematic than a raw russet huh?
            The rumbling will commence in 3...2...1

            Actually, it should take 2-3 hours to get to the large intestine where fermentation takes place.

            Sweet potatoes and yams are completely different than white potatoes in terms of RS and starch content. Very problematic for most to eat raw, too.

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            • Originally posted by otzi View Post
              The rumbling will commence in 3...2...1

              Actually, it should take 2-3 hours to get to the large intestine where fermentation takes place.

              Sweet potatoes and yams are completely different than white potatoes in terms of RS and starch content. Very problematic for most to eat raw, too.
              This is kind of a test to see if my (lets guess 1x/week) "cheat" day sort of binges have kept my gut bacteria ready for anything! Its like a surprise inspection.... eheh. I did it with a white potato, just small-medium size though. I mention the sweet potato bit cause just before I started crunching I was trying to find if there was any real chance of damage outside of some GI rumbles. Basically everything on the white potato says the nasties are mainly in the leaves, flowers, and to a small extent the skin.... just don't eat a green or damaged one. But, then I fould this for the sweet potato Is Eating raw sweet potato bad for you? - PaleoHacks.com and the top answer would give me pause about doing that. But yeah, been six hours and no dicernable difference from any other day. So far so good.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Neckhammer View Post
                This is kind of a test to see if my (lets guess 1x/week) "cheat" day sort of binges have kept my gut bacteria ready for anything! Its like a surprise inspection.... eheh. I did it with a white potato, just small-medium size though. I mention the sweet potato bit cause just before I started crunching I was trying to find if there was any real chance of damage outside of some GI rumbles. Basically everything on the white potato says the nasties are mainly in the leaves, flowers, and to a small extent the skin.... just don't eat a green or damaged one. But, then I fould this for the sweet potato Is Eating raw sweet potato bad for you? - PaleoHacks.com and the top answer would give me pause about doing that. But yeah, been six hours and no dicernable difference from any other day. So far so good.
                I would almost be inclined to believe that if you could eat a whole, raw potato and not get a case of serious fartage, that your gut bacteria does not contain many of the 'beneficial' kind, at least not the butyrate producing, resistant starch eating kind.

                If you get no toots, you will probably see chunks of undigested potato in your stool. That means it wasn't fermented or digested in your large intestine.

                How is your digestion normally? Are you happy with everything (flatulence, bowel movement frequency, ease, and malodor)?

                Comment


                • Originally posted by otzi View Post
                  I would almost be inclined to believe that if you could eat a whole, raw potato and not get a case of serious fartage, that your gut bacteria does not contain many of the 'beneficial' kind, at least not the butyrate producing, resistant starch eating kind.

                  If you get no toots, you will probably see chunks of undigested potato in your stool. That means it wasn't fermented or digested in your large intestine.

                  How is your digestion normally? Are you happy with everything (flatulence, bowel movement frequency, ease, and malodor)?

                  Oh, yeah... if I see floating potato I'll know I'm in trouble . Nah, I've got a cast iron gut. And everything is as normal as can be in that department. 1x/day sort of guy with ease and well it does smell like shit though . Interesting note on normal flatulence frequencies earlier in the thread though. I mean of course frequency of normal bowel sounds upon auscultation of the abdomen is part of abdominal physical examination, but I don't think I had ever seen a normal frequency of flatulence before. Interesting. I should say I seem to be normal there as well. Just decided to do this today for fun. I'm off work, had a great workout this morning... had a tator in the fridge. Nothing special bout my circumstances. Just a little test.

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                  • Otzi, I don't know how important the fractal structures of mitochondria are to the benefits that RS provides them, but I would not be surprised if they are significantly so.

                    I suspect that one reason the fractal aspect of things isn't researched more in science is that it is very complex and mysterious and difficult to quantify, though Mandelbrot was able to do some quantification of fractals. Also, fractals unfortunately attract lots of woo, which seems to turn off the hard science folks.

                    Thanks again for all the info you have shared so helpfully and cheerfully. Your diligence, thoroughness, generosity and positive attitude are so rare on the Internet that it's like coming across a rich gold ore vein in a mine. I especially appreciate someone who has tested things on himself and shared the results, without any dogma. It puzzles me why more accolades aren't directed your way. And I'm not someone who is generous with thanks or praise (an embarrassing fault that I sometimes get taken to task for).

                    I've eaten raw sweet potato in the past without problems. I found that to make it palatable I could soak it overnight. After soaking, it tasted a lot like carrots. Drying didn't help, unlike many other foods (meats and fruits that are air-dried tend to become incredibly delectable, for example--maybe too much so). It's been a long time since I tried raw sweet potatoes. I should probably try that again.

                    Mark Sisson seems like a reasonable and open-minded fellow, based on his book (which I bought) and blog. My guess is that there is something to this RS thing and he will eventually embrace it (and he has left that window open, as he hasn't condemned it) and then people will say things like "We ALWAYS knew that RS-rich foods were beneficial. You're didn't tell us anything we didn't already know." You probably will not receive much more thanks than that.
                    Last edited by Paleophil; 08-20-2013, 05:12 PM.
                    Originally posted by tatertot
                    Finding a diet you can tolerate is not the same as fixing what's wrong.
                    "our ancestors obtained resistant starch and other fermentable fibers by eating a diversity of wild plant foods, bulbs, corms, tubers, cattails, cactuses, and medicinal barks..." -Mark Sisson

                    "I've long ago tossed the idea that a particular macro ratio is poison, and am now starting to think that the EM2…is defined less by novel NADS…and more by the gut microbiome and environmental pseudocommensals ..." -Kurt Harris, MD

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                    • Originally posted by otzi View Post
                      The rumbling will commence in 3...2...1

                      Actually, it should take 2-3 hours to get to the large intestine where fermentation takes place.

                      Sweet potatoes and yams are completely different than white potatoes in terms of RS and starch content. Very problematic for most to eat raw, too.
                      I've eaten raw yams without any problems. I like white potatoes better.

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                      • So sweet potato eaters ... nobody is concerned about this:

                        "There is a significant correlation between the trypsin inhibitor content and the protein content of the sweet potato variety. Heating to 90°C for several minutes inactivates trypsin inhibitors. Lawrence and Walker (1976) have implicated TIA in sweet potato as a contributory factor in the disease enteritis necroticans. This seems doubtful since sweet potato is not usually eaten raw and the activity of the trypsin inhibitor present is destroyed by heat."

                        For more Paleo Diet hacks: Is Eating raw sweet potato bad for you? - PaleoHacks.com

                        I mean I'll risk a little stomach grumbling from a white potato, but the sweet potato seems to carry a higher risk profile raw.

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                        • Hello,

                          Yes, I can confirm the increased farting!! That is why I only eat RS in the evening ... (and by the way, I also skip breakfast, and sometimes lunch). Yesterday, I ate a very green banana ... it was really greener than usual, I felt my mouth was lacking saliva and my sense of taste got screwed up for like 15mn after that! The banana itself was very crunchy but the overall stuff was not too unpleasant. I usually eat rather green bananas but not that green ... You can bet that 2 hours later, I was farting big time. I also had some fermented milk and some yogurt so probiotics were having a party. And I should also mention that my dinner was buckwheat pasta among other things ... Quite some RS all in all.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Neckhammer View Post
                            Oh, yeah... if I see floating potato I'll know I'm in trouble . Nah, I've got a cast iron gut. And everything is as normal as can be in that department. 1x/day sort of guy with ease and well it does smell like shit though . Interesting note on normal flatulence frequencies earlier in the thread though. I mean of course frequency of normal bowel sounds upon auscultation of the abdomen is part of abdominal physical examination, but I don't think I had ever seen a normal frequency of flatulence before. Interesting. I should say I seem to be normal there as well. Just decided to do this today for fun. I'm off work, had a great workout this morning... had a tator in the fridge. Nothing special bout my circumstances. Just a little test.
                            I didn't mean to get too personal or provide TMI, I just find this all fascinating. Funny how one person can eat a raw potato and feel nothing while another does it and provides enough gas to fuel a mission to Mars. Sounds like you have really a really good population of gut microbes. Every time I hear people saying the only go "#2" twice a week I cringe. I think bowel health is the thing that ties health all together and people are woefully misinformed or under-informed on what a healthy gut should be doing.

                            Good find on the sweet potatoes! I won't eat any raw for sure.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Paleophil View Post
                              Mark Sisson seems like a reasonable and open-minded fellow, based on his book (which I bought) and blog. My guess is that there is something to this RS thing and he will eventually embrace it (and he has left that window open, as he hasn't condemned it) and then people will say things like "We ALWAYS knew that RS-rich foods were beneficial. You're didn't tell us anything we didn't already know." You probably will not receive much more thanks than that.
                              I think starch is still a dirty word in dieting. The concept of fiber was misrepresented for the last 30 years--and led to a huge increase in grain consumption. Gut flora is a newly emerging field with lots of unknowns. These three things combined make anyone who relies on the popular paleo or low-carb opinion of their target audience a subject to avoid.

                              I think when it all gets sorted out, better advice on fiber intake will appear and resistant starch will play a big role. Gut flora will be a target of opportunity for personal health and tons of supplements will appear on the shelves. It's a multi-billion dollar industry in waiting.

                              The biggest thing that bugs me about RS is that it will end up as a way to get people to eat more, and even 'healthier', grain. With RS, there is more than one way to skin a cat.

                              In the end, I think RS will be like Vit D and K, people know they should do it, understand the importance, but it will never be a huge topic of conversation.

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                              • Healthy Whole Grains? – 180 Degree Health

                                Good article by Anthony Colpo on grains, but really about fiber. Proves my point exactly about the bastardization of fiber.

                                Yep, this is the same guy who kicked off the worldwide fibre craze, folks.

                                Burkitt’s obsession with doo-doo was fuelled by the observation that increased fibre intake could increase stool weight and reduce stool density, two variables that were epidemiologically linked with a reduction in the incidence of several diseases. There was no clinical evidence that fibre could reduce the incidence of any disease – and there still isn’t – but lack of controlled scientific evidence has never discouraged epidemiologists from pursuing their beloved theories. And Burkitt was certainly no exception in this regard.

                                Mesmerized by the sterling quality of African faeces, and noting that rural Africans had both a higher fibre intake and a lower incidence of chronic diseases – including, most notably, colorectal cancer and diverticulitis – Burkitt started putting poo and poo, uh, I mean, two and two together and formed a hypothesis linking fibre intake and chronic disease susceptibility.

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