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  • Originally posted by Cryptocode View Post
    No, I'm implying, and said, that when the purpose of adding resistant starch to the diet is to add fiber, then it's not necessary in a PB diet. Greens and tubers provide plenty, especially greens. It may be necessary in a SAD diet as commonly eaten.

    However, previously there have been comments here that resistant starch helps with sleep. If it does, I would consider that a sufficient reason to add it.

    Thanks for the links, they were quite interesting. I've marked some.
    Your mileage may vary on sleep improvements with more RS in the diet, but it makes sense--gut microbes produce almost all of the serotonin in your body and proper levels lead to better sleep.

    As to RS being 'just fiber' and Primal Blueprint's Big Ass Salad being enough fiber...that is a point of contention with me. RS has some very specific end-products that aren't associated with most other fibers. RS is preferred food for butyrate producing microbes and when those microbes are allowed to flourish, they cause definite changes to the cells lining the colon (colonocytes) which improves overall gut health, vitamin and mineral uptake, and many other benefits associated with a healthy gut.

    The 'fiber' you get with a Big Ass Salad is minimal. Most of the fiber found on a salad bar or produce aisle is non-fermentable by gut microbes, and much of the fermentable fiber is fermented equally throughout the gut by all it's inhabitants.

    Fiber that ends up mainly as butyrate includes pectins, gums, and resistant starches. The other fibers like cellulose, fructans, inulin, and the whole FODMAP lineup provide stool bulking properties and some prebiotic action--but don't have the targeted butyrate production that RS has.

    The best 'fiber' consumption one could strive for is a mix of all the fiber types, with RS being a majority. Aiming for 40g of fiber per day with RS being at least 50% of that is a good start.

    Comment


    • PaleoPhil asked: What do folks make of this suggesting that the type 1 physically inaccessible RS found in nuts, seeds, grains and legumes show poorer study results than the type 2 RS in potatoes and plantains...
      Type 1 (Physically inaccessible or digestible resistant starch, such as that found in seeds or legumes and unprocessed whole grains) have been a mystery to me. If they are 'physically inaccessible' how can they do anything? And when made accessible, are they still RS1? It would be like encapsulating sugar in a copper pellet and calling it 'resistant sucrose'.

      If you study up on starch, you will see that under an electron microscope, resistant starch has unique properties. It has to do with the packaging, shape and cell structure. They use the term 'X-Ray Diffraction Pattern' http://www.academicjournals.org/JCO/...%20et%20al.pdf when determining RS. It was originally thought that RS was a function of amylose vs amylopectin starch molecules--but that proved irrelevant.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Paleophil View Post
        There is some research suggesting that butyrate from colonic fiber fermentation and DHA work "in a coordinated fashion" to trigger mitochondrial-mediated benefits in colonocytes: "Interactive Effects of Fatty Acid and Butyrate-Induced Mitochondrial Ca2ž, Loading and Apoptosis in Colonocytes," Interactive effects of fatty acid and butyrate-induced mitochondrial Ca2+ loading and apoptosis in colonocytes - Kolar - 2011 - Cancer - Wiley Online Library

        Docosahexaenoic Acid and Butyrate Synergistically Induce Colonocyte Apoptosis by Enhancing Mitochondrial Ca2+ Accumulation, 2007, Docosahexaenoic Acid and Butyrate Synergistically Induce Colonocyte Apoptosis by Enhancing Mitochondrial Ca2+ Accumulation
        PaleoPhil - You buried probably the most important study you have dug up! I found these very interesting. This indicates that butyrate becomes much more potent at protecting the colon when omega 3 levels are correct. Maybe that's one of the missing links in this puzzle!

        Comment


        • Originally posted by otzi View Post
          The 'fiber' you get with a Big Ass Salad is minimal. Most of the fiber found on a salad bar or produce aisle is non-fermentable by gut microbes, and much of the fermentable fiber is fermented equally throughout the gut by all it's inhabitants.

          Fiber that ends up mainly as butyrate includes pectins, gums, and resistant starches. The other fibers like cellulose, fructans, inulin, and the whole FODMAP lineup provide stool bulking properties and some prebiotic action--but don't have the targeted butyrate production that RS has.

          The best 'fiber' consumption one could strive for is a mix of all the fiber types, with RS being a majority. Aiming for 40g of fiber per day with RS being at least 50% of that is a good start.
          Is the question we're discussing 'how much fiber do we need'? If so, it's quite clear to me that I do not need anywhere near the amount the FDA says. Fiber is either soluble or insoluble. The insoluble fiber is neither fermented nor digested and provides bulk only. The soluble fiber is both fermented and digested.

          Or are we asking 'how much butyrate do we need'? "Without butyrates for energy, colon cells undergo autophagy (self digestion) and die. Short-chain fatty acids, which include butyrate, are produced by beneficial colonic bacteria (probiotics) that feed on, or ferment prebiotics, which are plant products that contain adequate amounts of dietary fiber. These short-chain fatty acids benefit the colonocyte by increasing energy production, and cell proliferation and may protect against colon cancer." - From your Wiki link.

          Salad bars usually have lettuce, and pale green at that. I eat dark greens (and reds) - kale, chard, beet, dandelion, etc., not lettuce. These greens are high in soluble fibers. I also make sure I have plenty of live gut bacteria (from probiotics if needed) to ferment them.

          "Butyrate is a major metabolite in colonic lumen arising from bacterial fermentation of dietary fiber and has been shown to be a critical mediator of the colonic inflammatory response. Butyrate possesses both preventive and therapeutic potential to counteract inflammation-mediated ulcerative colitis (UC) and colorectal cancer." - from your Wiki link.

          How much is hard to answer. Certainly I don't need as much as the FDA says. The best way I know is the C-RP general inflammation test. If you're under 1.00 you're probably not going to have ulcerative colitis (UC) or colorectal cancer.
          http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16633129

          Here's a interesting study: http://arno.unimaas.nl/show.cgi?fid=16226. It does give some numbers on the 'how much' questions.
          Last edited by Cryptocode; 08-19-2013, 04:15 PM.
          "When the search for truth is confused with political advocacy, the pursuit of knowledge is reduced to the quest for power." - Alston Chase

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Cryptocode View Post
            Is the question we're discussing 'how much fiber do we need'? If so, it's quite clear to me that I do not need anywhere near the amount the FDA says. Fiber is either soluble or insoluble. The insoluble fiber is neither fermented nor digested and provides bulk only. The soluble fiber is both fermented and digested.

            How much is a difficult question to answer. The best way I know, and I'm sure there are better, is the C-RP test.

            Or are we asking 'how much butyrate do we need'? "Without butyrates for energy, colon cells undergo autophagy (self digestion) and die. Short-chain fatty acids, which include butyrate, are produced by beneficial colonic bacteria (probiotics) that feed on, or ferment prebiotics, which are plant products that contain adequate amounts of dietary fiber. These short-chain fatty acids benefit the colonocyte by increasing energy production, and cell proliferation and may protect against colon cancer." - From your Wiki link.

            Salad bars usually have lettuce. I eat greens - kale, chard, beet, dandelion, etc., not lettuce. These greens are high in soluble fibers. I also make sure I have plenty of live gut bacteria (from probiotics if needed) to ferment them.

            "Butyrate is a major metabolite in colonic lumen arising from bacterial fermentation of dietary fiber and has been shown to be a critical mediator of the colonic inflammatory response. Butyrate possesses both preventive and therapeutic potential to counteract inflammation-mediated ulcerative colitis (UC) and colorectal cancer." - from your Wiki link.
            Just like you had to 'un-learn' conventional wisdom when you went Primal, it may do you some good to 'un-learn' what you think you know about fiber and probiotics.

            Soluble and insoluble are ancient terms that have no meaning. These terms are more geared toward food manufacturers who add fiber to foods, AKA 'functional fibers'. The prebiotics found in yogurt, kefir, and fermented veggies do more good in fermenting the original food and making it easier to digest and unlock some minerals/vitamins, but most of them never make it to your large intestine where there should already be teeming colonies of them. The reason there are not teeming colonies is because most people don't eat the right foods--the foods that butyrate-producing bacteria thrive on.

            Soluble and insoluble only refers to the fiber's relationship with water, not whether it ferments or not. Fermentable and non-fermentable would have been the better designator for fiber, but gut bacteria was not well studied when fiber was first talked about.

            Look at the definition of fiber:
            Dietary fiber, dietary fibre, or sometimes roughage and ruffage is the indigestible portion of food derived from plants and waste of animals that eat dietary fiber. (Wikipedia, Dietary Fiber)
            It's further broken down:
            Soluble fiber dissolves in water. It is readily fermented in the colon into gases and physiologically active byproducts, and can be prebiotic and/or viscous. Soluble fibers tend to slow the movement of food through the system.
            Insoluble fiber does not dissolve in water. It can be metabolically inert and provide bulking or prebiotic, metabolically fermenting in the large intestine. Bulking fibers absorb water as they move through the digestive system, easing defecation.[1] Fermentable insoluble fibers mildly promote stool regularity, although not to the extent that bulking fibers do, but they can be readily fermented in the colon into gases and physiologically active byproducts. Insoluble fibers tend to accelerate the movement of food through the system.
            So, according to this, soluble fiber 'readily ferments in the colon' whereas insoluble fiber 'metabolically ferment[s] in the large intestine' huh?

            I think it is very clear that all types of fiber are needed, but fermentable fibers, especially the ones preferred by butyrate-producing gut bacteria (pectins, gums, resistant starch) are of primary concern, yet underrepresented in SAD and paleo/primal to an even greater extent.

            Comment


            • Dear Otiz, I have a (bad) habit of re-editing my comments, Because several times I've lost my whole comment, so I keep saving. Please update my quotes (or give me a good 10 minutes to finish messing around).
              "When the search for truth is confused with political advocacy, the pursuit of knowledge is reduced to the quest for power." - Alston Chase

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Cryptocode View Post
                Dear Otiz, I have a (bad) habit of re-editing my comments, Because several times I've lost my whole comment, so I keep saving. Please update my quotes (or give me a good 10 minutes to finish messing around).
                Sorry! Glad you said this, though, I almost missed the study you linked: http://arno.unimaas.nl/show.cgi?fid=16226 a real must-read for anyone who says butyrate needs can be met with butter (not unless it's a butter enema!).

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Cryptocode View Post
                  No, I'm implying, and said, that when the purpose of adding resistant starch to the diet is to add fiber, then it's not necessary in a PB diet.
                  Thanks for trying to clarify, Cryptocode. I think I have a better inkling of what you meant, but I don’t want to make a wrong assumption, so I’ll try to clarify with more specific questions. In your 8.17 post, were you commenting on or responding to anything specific, such as maybe the first post in this thread, and by “this study” did you mean the study linked in that post? If so, were you responding to just the study or Otzi’s comment or both?

                  I see that Otzi already explained that it's not just a matter of adding fiber to the diet, and that all soluble fiber is not fermentable. Hope that clears that up.

                  Greens and tubers provide plenty
                  Tubers contain RS, so if you're already eating tubers, then you may be getting a decent amount of RS, depending on how they're prepared, and maybe a good overall amount of fermentable fiber, though Otzi is more knowledgeable about the amounts and types than me.

                  However, previously there have been comments here that resistant starch helps with sleep. If it does, I would consider that a sufficient reason to add it.
                  Good luck in whatever you do. I don't prescribe for anyone and am glad you're asking skeptical questions, as I wouldn't want anyone trying something simply because I'm trying it and having early good results. I didn't notice sleep improvement at first and that wasn't one of my reasons for trying it, but I am increasingly noticing that I'm falling asleep a bit earlier and more easily. It's been a mild and unexpected change, as my sleep quality was already good.

                  I too was skeptical at first of butyrate from fermentable fiber and thought I could get it from butter, which Dr. Eades claimed, until I learned that butyrate from butter gets digested before it can reach the large intestine where it's most beneficial. So I gave plantains and unmodified potato starch a try and quickly noticed benefits from the potato starch, particularly in my blood glucose readings, despite the fact that I was already eating all the other foods you mentioned.

                  ---

                  Originally posted by otzi View Post
                  RS is preferred food for butyrate producing microbes and when those microbes are allowed to flourish, they cause definite changes to the cells lining the colon (colonocytes) which improves overall gut health, vitamin and mineral uptake
                  Thanks for the info on vitamin and mineral uptake, Otzi, you're a wealth of information. That fits with my suspicion that GI issues and gluten intolerance contributed to my developing chronic nutrient deficiencies and poor absorption. I’ll bet that GI docs don’t normally check for subtle damage to colonocytes, just for more obvious things like flattened villi, polyps, tumors, and Crohns inflammation.

                  The other fibers like cellulose, fructans, inulin, and the whole FODMAP lineup provide stool bulking properties and some prebiotic action--but don't have the targeted butyrate production that RS has.
                  Several people have suggested or hinted in other threads in this forum and at other websites that other fibers like inulin are just as good at generating SCFAs as RS, and allege that therefore there's no need to eat RS (though why one couldn't still eat both, I don't know). I saw one study indicating that RS produces more butyrate than inulin does, but it was funded by the National Starch Council, so I doubt that RS skeptics will take it seriously. Do you have good information supporting this claim of more butyrate production from RS than other fermentable fibers?

                  This indicates that butyrate becomes much more potent at protecting the colon when omega 3 levels are correct. Maybe that's one of the missing links in this puzzle!
                  This rings true with me, because I'm familiar with research that suggests that DHA-rich brains and wild tubers that probably contained RS were two important foods in our ancient human and pre-human ancestors in Africa during the Paleolithic and before. Today DHA and RS are two things that tend to be lacking in modern diets. Maybe some folks who don’t get much benefit from RS are deficient in omega 3?

                  Do you agree with the consensus view that cooking, especially boiling, greatly reduces the alkaloid content of potatoes?

                  I too was puzzled by RS1.
                  Last edited by Paleophil; 08-19-2013, 07:05 PM.
                  Originally posted by tatertot
                  Finding a diet you can tolerate is not the same as fixing what's wrong.
                  "our ancestors obtained resistant starch and other fermentable fibers by eating a diversity of wild plant foods, bulbs, corms, tubers, cattails, cactuses, and medicinal barks..." -Mark Sisson

                  "I've long ago tossed the idea that a particular macro ratio is poison, and am now starting to think that the EM2…is defined less by novel NADS…and more by the gut microbiome and environmental pseudocommensals ..." -Kurt Harris, MD

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Paleophil View Post
                    Do you agree with the consensus view that cooking, especially boiling, greatly reduces the alkaloid content of potatoes?
                    Yes, I believe boiling is the best way to prepare potatoes even if other methods have more RS. There just really isn't enough RS in a potato to fret over the best way to eke out an extra 1% RS. That said, I prefer fried potatoes, which actually does seem to produce more RS because of the dry heat, but also may produce the highest amount of harmful substances. Maybe there's a 'master plan' for that...who knows.

                    I'll dig up my RS vs other fiber for butyrate studies tomorrow, but here's one to chew on for now: Short-Chain Fatty Acids and Human Colonic Function: Roles of Resistant Starch and Nonstarch Polysaccharides

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by otzi View Post
                      If you study up on starch, you will see that under an electron microscope, resistant starch has unique properties. It has to do with the packaging, shape and cell structure. They use the term 'X-Ray Diffraction Pattern' http://www.academicjournals.org/JCO/...%20et%20al.pdf when determining RS. It was originally thought that RS was a function of amylose vs amylopectin starch molecules--but that proved irrelevant.
                      Thanks, as soon as I saw the X-Ray Diffraction Pattern and put that together with the crystalline cell structure, I thought "fractal." Sure enough, resistant starches have a fractal surface and porous structure and apparently have higher fractal dimensions than more easily digested starches:

                      Structure and enzymatic resistivity of debranched high temperature?pressure treated high-amylose corn starch

                      Fractal Structure of Deformed Potato Starch and Its Sorption Characteristics - ResearchGate

                      Fractal dimension and rheological properties of cereal starches
                      http://www.old.international-agrophy...&paper=936&i=7

                      A fractal analysis approach for predicting starch retrogradation from X-ray diffractograms - Utrilla-Coello - 2013 - Starch - St[]rke - Wiley Online Library


                      Mitochondria, which benefit from RS and are a favored topic of Peter's of the Hyperlipid blog, also have fractal structures:

                      The fractal structure of the mitochondrial genomes
                      https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=...Nw_UQ0VljQLOQg

                      Self-similar mitochondrial DNA. 2004 Self-similar mitochondrial DNA. [Cell Biochem Biophys. 2004] - PubMed - NCBI

                      "The [fractal] surface folding similar to that of a brain was found in many other surfaces, such as the ones inside the cell on mitochondria, which is used for obtaining energy...." Applications of Fractals - Human Body

                      "Morphologically, mitochondria form dynamic networks, regular – lattice-like as in the heart or skeletal muscle – or irregular – reticular-like as in neurons." (From isolated to networked: a paradigmatic shift in mitochondrial physiology
                      https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=...Nw_UQ0VljQLOQg)

                      Resistant Starch—A Review
                      Resistant Starch–A Review - Sajilata - 2006 - Comprehensive Reviews in Food Science and Food Safety - Wiley Online Library

                      A New Type of Fiber | The Saturday Evening Post
                      The Saturday Evening Post | Home of The Saturday Evening Post
                      Jun 25, 2009 - In general, cooking breaks down starch. Cooling, however, crystallizes the starch and makes it more resistant to digestion.

                      The Effects of Heating and Cooling Rates on the Structure of Carbon Black Particles
                      rubberchemtechnol.org/doi/pdf/10.5254/1.3538469
                      Structure and properties of carbon black particles "Heating reduced the roughness and fractal dimension for all samples heat treated at above 1300 K to 2.0."
                      Originally posted by tatertot
                      Finding a diet you can tolerate is not the same as fixing what's wrong.
                      "our ancestors obtained resistant starch and other fermentable fibers by eating a diversity of wild plant foods, bulbs, corms, tubers, cattails, cactuses, and medicinal barks..." -Mark Sisson

                      "I've long ago tossed the idea that a particular macro ratio is poison, and am now starting to think that the EM2…is defined less by novel NADS…and more by the gut microbiome and environmental pseudocommensals ..." -Kurt Harris, MD

                      Comment


                      • Hey RS experts,

                        I am actually using a "fiber mix" which contains soluble fibers and RS from hi-maize starch. I am adding it to some fermented dairy once in a while. Do you think the hi-maize stuff is good enough ? (I also eat potatoes, rice, buckwheat "spaghetti", etc, after cooling them overnight in the fridge - I also like green bananas but they are harder to find than one can wish for because they are not very popular ...).

                        Comment


                        • Ohhh look what arrived today in a box of 10...



                          Otzi, I took a break yesterday and will now limit myself to 1 tablespoon a day. I'm doing this for increased satiety as I've been eating like a horse since starting a relatively intense kettlebell programme and I think I need to back off a bit.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by otzi View Post
                            Once you get your guts right, you will find more farts than before, but generally in the range of 15-30 per day...sounds excessive, but it is normal. 30-50+ per day is excessive. 0-15 per day shows lack of fermentation. It's an interesting thing to study up on, lots written about it--little is ever said.
                            Never thought I'd write this, but I need to read up on farting. My experience going low carb paleo initially was almost no farts any more, which I thought was a good thing. Ever since going more the PHD way, I suppose it is in the region of 15-30 a day. Overconsuming RS made me go to over a 100 a day, if not more! Let's see how it goes in the next few weeks.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by FrenchFry View Post
                              Hey RS experts,

                              I am actually using a "fiber mix" which contains soluble fibers and RS from hi-maize starch. I am adding it to some fermented dairy once in a while. Do you think the hi-maize stuff is good enough ? (I also eat potatoes, rice, buckwheat "spaghetti", etc, after cooling them overnight in the fridge - I also like green bananas but they are harder to find than one can wish for because they are not very popular ...).
                              I'd like to hear more about your 'fiber mix'. I think you could make your own with a mixture of 25% Psyllium Husk Powder and 75% Potato starch (or even Hi-Maize). I don't think there is anything wrong with Hi-Maize, I just think people are deluded if they think it's going to be 'healthy' to use it in baking alongside wheat flour, or found as an ingredient in store-bought bread. If you want to use Hi-Maize, add it raw to a smoothie or glass of milk/kefir.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by FlyingPig View Post
                                Never thought I'd write this, but I need to read up on farting. My experience going low carb paleo initially was almost no farts any more, which I thought was a good thing. Ever since going more the PHD way, I suppose it is in the region of 15-30 a day. Overconsuming RS made me go to over a 100 a day, if not more! Let's see how it goes in the next few weeks.
                                I always tell people who want to try RS to go into it with very low expectations. Kind of like taking a probiotic pill or a Vit D capsule. You probably won't notice anything different, but it's good for you. I think if you start out at 1TBS a day and add in an extra TBS or two on some days, you will be good to go for the long run. I doubt anyone needs 4TBS a day forever.

                                Comment

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