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Danny Roddy slams Paleo on Matt Stone's Blog

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  • #91
    I actually like that name they gave it... A Paleo Template: The Best Way To Combat Adaptation?

    I would say that's correct. By refusing to kill ourselves with grains, we are indeed failing to help humanity adapt to them. But somehow, I just can't seem to give a fig. Sacrificing my health on the altar of what's good for the species completely blows.
    Out of context quote for the day:

    Clearly Gorbag is so awesome he should be cloned, reproducing in the normal manner would only dilute his awesomeness. - Urban Forager

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    • #92
      Originally posted by Wildrose View Post
      I actually like that name they gave it... A Paleo Template: The Best Way To Combat Adaptation?

      I would say that's correct. By refusing to kill ourselves with grains, we are indeed failing to help humanity adapt to them. But somehow, I just can't seem to give a fig. Sacrificing my health on the altar of what's good for the species completely blows.
      Consuming grains will not cause anyone to adapt. The only mechanism by which populations will adapt will be if the weaker members are killed off by celiac before they are old enough to reproduce, or fail to reproduce due to fertility problems caused by celiac.

      Comment


      • #93
        Originally posted by TheyCallMeLazarus View Post
        "Don't argue with idiots. They will take you down to their level and beat you from experience."
        Another good one is "Never wrestle with a pig. You get dirty and the pig enjoys it."

        Comment


        • #94
          Firstly, just want to affirm that I'm not being confrontational here

          There's something spacey about Ray Peat's writings, so I can understand why he would irritate people. There is a wide attitude of "cold, hard facts" in Western culture, yet ironically, most of the people who make significant discoveries are dreamers (even Yudkin was described as such).

          Not that I hero-worship Peat, or believe he's going to discover the secret of immortality, but I will say one thing: the more I adopt his protocols, the better I feel. I don't think everyone should try and eat like this, but he focuses a lot on particular hormones, like thyroid, oestrogen etc, so if you have issues with these, his suggestions really help.

          I never drink soft drinks or eat gummy bears. What I do:
          - Add gelatine to my coffee
          - Eat a lot of dairy and fruit
          - Avoid PUFA (no chicken, pig, nuts, seeds. I do eat fish)
          - Get my meat from shellfish, and red meat.

          Part of the problem with his dietary suggestions is that they reduce the need for cooking, so most people would be subconsciously turned off by this alone. Since I started eating more like this I haven't cooked once. I've been eating a lot of mono meals. Again, not for everyone, but I like the simplicity of it. I have digestive issues, and this seems to help a lot.

          Originally posted by TheyCallMeLazarus View Post
          4) People that act as if the "speed of metabolism" is something which can be easily manipulated, as Peat seems to do (not sure, his stuff made me want to punch kittens after 3 minutes), needs studies to back that up. From my experience, these do not exist. I don't magically burn double the calories at basal rate because I ate Panda skin for breakfast or plain gelatin
          Originally posted by TheyCallMeLazarus View Post
          I originally studied cell molecular bio in school....and for me it has never passed the sniff test.

          Your cells process ATP, which gives off heat, which we measure as calories.....in most cells, the mitochondrial count is the same (one), however in muscle you can "grow" more mitochondria.

          What that means is that there are really only two ways to create more mito or to make them process more ATP: Make more/largen cells (hypertrophy), or make them run through more ATP which only works as fast as you can supply oxygen, fat, or creatine.

          Now, where does me eating Panda skin/refriend goat tongue/raw gelatin come in to influence any of that?

          If someone can show me, biochemically, how the hell that works, then I won't think this guy is full of shit. Your metabolism (how many ATP you have running at a given time) is bent by your exercise habits, your genes, how cold/hot you are, and your age/gender. I haven't seen a study that has ever proven otherwise.
          Firstly, Ray Peat doesn't just talk about metabolism in terms of how may calories you burn per hour: he talks aout in terms of how efficiently your body processes energy. He says that a body that really maximises the fuels given to it improves exponentially in all aspects. This is why he links intelligence and metabolism.

          Secondly, I'm not an expert, but doesn't eating change your metabolism? I've read studies where they said that eating protein raises your metabolism by 20ish%, carbs by 4%, fat by 2%. I also saw a study where someone's basal metabolic rate was measured at the start of a 30 day period of a particular woe, and at the end, and it rose by the equivalent of 200 cals. Also, the volume that you eat changes your metabolism?

          Originally posted by TheyCallMeLazarus View Post
          3) Anyone that uses THEIR n=1, whatever it is, as proof of the legitimacy of their ideas, again, should not be listened to.
          Do you mean an individual's N=1 counts for nothing, or just that a researcher shouldn't put forward his own N=1's as evidence for a particular theory? I described my N=1 above, but I don't believe it would hold true for another person.

          Actually, I believe that objectivity is impossible, because the act of observation automatically changes the outcome of an experiment (according to quantum physics).

          Originally posted by Graycat View Post
          Personally, I don't understand how minimally processed substance derived from the core of a sugar cane plant is inferior to a fatty piece of feedlot pig's stomach, for example.


          Originally posted by j3nn View Post
          When I was in the hospital last week, my night nurse waited for several minutes for another nurse to come confirm that 22:00 is 10 o'clock because she didn't know and apparently counting to 24 is too hard for someone who is responsible for keeping me alive for a few hours.
          What happened J3nn???

          Originally posted by Paleobird View Post
          Another good one is "Never wrestle with a pig. You get dirty and the pig enjoys it."
          LOL - that used to be my sig! Bernard Shaw
          Last edited by YogaBare; 07-23-2013, 11:55 PM.
          "I think the basic anti-aging diet is also the best diet for prevention and treatment of diabetes, scleroderma, and the various "connective tissue diseases." This would emphasize high protein, low unsaturated fats, low iron, and high antioxidant consumption, with a moderate or low starch consumption.

          In practice, this means that a major part of the diet should be milk, cheese, eggs, shellfish, fruits and coconut oil, with vitamin E and salt as the safest supplements."

          - Ray Peat

          Comment


          • #95
            Originally posted by Paleobird View Post
            That too. Makes it hard to take his "science" seriously.
            I don't eat gummy bears as i think they're unnecessary but he doesn't recommend the store bought ones. Homemade, without vegetable oils and other gumpf. They are for the gelatin and sugar.

            Thus, it is also hard to take someone seriously who attempts to debunk anothers research when.....they have not read their research with any thought or integrity. Or even at all.
            Last edited by Rocco Hill; 07-24-2013, 01:10 AM.

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            • #96
              Originally posted by YogaBare View Post
              I will say one thing: the more I adopt his protocols, the better I feel.
              I feel pretty much the same. Never had serious illness, been overweight nor a fugged metabolism, but went from LC 'Paleo' to a starch based(potatoe, squash, yams, root veg basically) plus animal protein(high quality red meat/chicken/eggs) and fat(helluva lot of butter/coconut etc) type one. Both had good things, with former i struggled to get enough calories naturally, the latter I was just as lean but eventually became bored, farty, fatigued, not coping with stress and food lost it's appeal. My system was telling me to change things up so I obliged.

              With this way, it's easier all round. It's still only an experiment for me but so far;

              Extremely relaxed(bu...but sugar makes you WIRED and C-C-C-RAZY?)
              10 x more energy, which wasn't bad previously but something was 'off'
              Coping with stress and 'negative' stuff far more efficiently
              Mental clarity through the roof, no more brain fog
              General improvement in mood
              General free-flow in my body
              NO gas, 1st class craps every day(tbh not much of an issue previously, but I believe we must strive toward perfection or else)
              Satiated - and yet I don't feel the need to eat every 2 hrs
              Smell better


              It's still not perfect(for me, not sure such an ideal exists but I strive) and I'm going to have to see how things play out. I may be consuming a little too much liquid.

              Yesterday I ate:

              leftover white potato fried in coconut oil then slathered with the stuff and pinch of salt/3 eggs/Pint of OJ with a pinch of bicarb soda
              1 Cup of coffee with whole milk
              4 Pints whole milk (pasteurised, un-homogenised, grass fed)
              200g cheese (unpastuerised, animal rennet, grass fed)
              Another pint of OJ.
              Bowl of strawberries
              White rice w/liberal slab of Kerrygold butter and oxtail, pinch of salt
              TBSP cocoa powder(no soya Lethicin, just cane sugar and cocoa)
              Raw grated carrott w/coconut oil

              'Bout 3000kcals, but who's counting. As you can see, no gummy bears, no coke, no ice cream(though I do eat that, homemade shiz). That's just an example. I've done days of pure liquid, which I'd think would be a rarity. I also eat lamb liver, not much beef recently because i haven't felt the need but I love that stuff so probably soon. ~Got a bowl of cherries sitting infront of me.

              Vegetables I'm really not interested in. Oh well. My Grandma's barely eaten a vegetable in the last 70 yrs, she's now 90 y/o and still riding horses.



              Part of the problem with his dietary suggestions is that they reduce the need for cooking, so most people would be subconsciously turned off by this alone. Since I started eating more like this I haven't cooked once. I've been eating a lot of mono meals. Again, not for everyone, but I like the simplicity of it. I have digestive issues, and this seems to help a lot.
              And that's a problem?


              I'd say the only problem is not people refuting Peat's research with counter-research, but people refuting his research because it doesn't fit in with their established dogma. I'm always banging the context drum, and saying that individual context matters greatly - advice given on this forum is often lacking any regard for context - which is why I like Peat's work.

              Comment


              • #97
                "Firstly, Ray Peat doesn't just talk about metabolism in terms of how may calories you burn per hour: he talks aout in terms of how efficiently your body processes energy. He says that a body that really maximises the fuels given to it improves exponentially in all aspects. This is why he links intelligence and metabolism.

                Secondly, I'm not an expert, but doesn't eating change your metabolism? I've read studies where they said that eating protein raises your metabolism by 20ish%, carbs by 4%, fat by 2%. I also saw a study where someone's basal metabolic rate was measured at the start of a 30 day period of a particular woe, and at the end, and it rose by the equivalent of 200 cals. Also, the volume that you eat changes your metabolism?"

                1) I am about a familiar with his work as a 12 year old is to Stephen Hawking's. I am not looking for a protocol change because what I do is very easy and very effective, for me....that said, the theories behind it are not new, and I have never seen convincing studies or proof that they work. Like I have said before, the question is never "does this work?". The question is "Is this the minimum effective dose?"....if I can get these results with this work/hassle over here, but I could be getting SUPERIOR results with this here, I am not getting the MED. I am spinning my wheels.

                2) You are referring to the thermogenic effect of food, which causes some food to require more energy to digest....I am always very leery any time I see anyone use the word "metabolism". What does that mean? Are you processing ATP faster, building more mito, what? More often than not it is a spacey term people insert in to make their approach look scientific when it is not....it's ok that it's not, but that word is a red-flag for me. I have never seen a study that shows metabolism, actual RATE of ATP use, varies based on nutrition sources. Cells simply don't behave that way....I am very open to being proven wrong on this.
                "The soul that does not attempt flight; does not notice its chains."

                Comment


                • #98
                  The whole problem with this Danny Roddy stuff is that it is hard to measure. Especially compared to CICO. CICO is tidy but hormones are subjective. In my opinion CICO is not the answer. I've spent years working on ships alongside guys who eat the same menu and do the same work and the results are not the same. If CICO was real everyone in any kind of isolation would morph to look like their peers

                  I've done LC and got pretty lean but also weaker and more injury prone. My body works better on a natural diet eating carbs as well as fat and protein. Doing this I don't maintain a single digit BF but I feel and perform better, my PRs improve, joint pain goes away enjoy life more. Probably the only thing I have logged for years are my workouts and without any doubt I get stronger and have more endurance when I eat carbs and dairy.

                  I honestly don't believe I am meant to be ripped. I'm by no means fat or even overweight but certainly not CK model style either.

                  Are Danny Roddy and Ray Peat right? I honestly don't know but it is something to think about especially of you are someone who beats themselves up about not being paleo/ primal enough (i.e. I'm not losing weight anymore, maybe my beef is not 100% grass fed)

                  Comment


                  • #99
                    Originally posted by YogaBare View Post
                    What happened J3nn???
                    I lost too much blood and my husband found me unconscious. He brought me to the ER where they admitted me and told me my hemoglobin was down to 5.3; anything below 8 needs a blood transfusion, but my range was critical. If I didn't get there, I would nhave bled to death. Anyway, I spent two days in the hospital receiving 5 units of blood, which brought me up to 8.4 when they discharged me but it should have been over 10. I was still losing too much.

                    They did all sorts of poking and prodding. Ultrasound didn't show any abnormalities other than thickened endometrial lining. I'm not producing enough (or virtually any) progesterone. They started me on provera. The first GYN they sent in wanted to give me a shot of estrogen. WTF? I have plenty! Anyway, I dodged that bullet but I'm still a wreck.

                    I've had lifelong hypertension, but my BP in the hospital was under 100/60s the whole time. I'm thankful for the blood donations. ER nurse looked at my palms and showed me how everyone else's in the room were bright pink; mine were pale and yellow and my lips were blue. My husband is still traumatized.
                    | My (food) Blog | Follow me on Facebook | Pinterest | Twitter |

                    “It does not take a majority to prevail, but rather an irate, tireless minority, keen on setting brushfires of freedom in the minds of men.” - Samuel Adams

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                    • ^ Hope you feel better J3nn!

                      I donated blood on Saturday

                      Only the second time I've ever done so, but I'm gonna try to make it a habit.

                      Comment


                      • He is selling somthing...carrots!

                        He works for the people at BIG CARROT as a lobbyist in DC.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Neckhammer View Post
                          ^ Hope you feel better J3nn!

                          I donated blood on Saturday

                          Only the second time I've ever done so, but I'm gonna try to make it a habit.
                          Thanks, NH. You are helping to save lives. Hopefully one day I can return the favor.
                          | My (food) Blog | Follow me on Facebook | Pinterest | Twitter |

                          “It does not take a majority to prevail, but rather an irate, tireless minority, keen on setting brushfires of freedom in the minds of men.” - Samuel Adams

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by j3nn View Post
                            I lost too much blood and my husband found me unconscious. He brought me to the ER where they admitted me and told me my hemoglobin was down to 5.3; anything below 8 needs a blood transfusion, but my range was critical. If I didn't get there, I would nhave bled to death. Anyway, I spent two days in the hospital receiving 5 units of blood, which brought me up to 8.4 when they discharged me but it should have been over 10. I was still losing too much.

                            They did all sorts of poking and prodding. Ultrasound didn't show any abnormalities other than thickened endometrial lining. I'm not producing enough (or virtually any) progesterone. They started me on provera. The first GYN they sent in wanted to give me a shot of estrogen. WTF? I have plenty! Anyway, I dodged that bullet but I'm still a wreck.

                            I've had lifelong hypertension, but my BP in the hospital was under 100/60s the whole time. I'm thankful for the blood donations. ER nurse looked at my palms and showed me how everyone else's in the room were bright pink; mine were pale and yellow and my lips were blue. My husband is still traumatized.
                            Jesus J3nn - that's terrible. I'm really sorry that you both went through that.

                            So where do you go from here? Obviously this is a serious condition you have. Have you looked into getting an amazing Endo? You're in NY - I bet you could get some of the best there!

                            Originally posted by TheyCallMeLazarus View Post
                            1) I am about a familiar with his work as a 12 year old is to Stephen Hawking's. I am not looking for a protocol change because what I do is very easy and very effective, for me....that said, the theories behind it are not new, and I have never seen convincing studies or proof that they work. Like I have said before, the question is never "does this work?". The question is "Is this the minimum effective dose?"....if I can get these results with this work/hassle over here, but I could be getting SUPERIOR results with this here, I am not getting the MED. I am spinning my wheels.

                            2) You are referring to the thermogenic effect of food, which causes some food to require more energy to digest....I am always very leery any time I see anyone use the word "metabolism". What does that mean? Are you processing ATP faster, building more mito, what? More often than not it is a spacey term people insert in to make their approach look scientific when it is not....it's ok that it's not, but that word is a red-flag for me. I have never seen a study that shows metabolism, actual RATE of ATP use, varies based on nutrition sources. Cells simply don't behave that way....I am very open to being proven wrong on this.
                            That absolutely legitimate that you wouldn't look into him too deeply if you're happy with your woe! Out of interest, where have you come across similar ideas before? I'd be interested to read them.

                            The study I saw was with one of those space suits things that measure metabolism (I think they measure oxygen consumption?) Thnks for the info though, I'm waiting for a counter argument from a Peatatarian so I can learn more!

                            Originally posted by Bobert View Post
                            He is selling somthing...carrots!

                            He works for the people at BIG CARROT as a lobbyist in DC.
                            To be fair, he does sell a Progesterone oil... I bought it!
                            "I think the basic anti-aging diet is also the best diet for prevention and treatment of diabetes, scleroderma, and the various "connective tissue diseases." This would emphasize high protein, low unsaturated fats, low iron, and high antioxidant consumption, with a moderate or low starch consumption.

                            In practice, this means that a major part of the diet should be milk, cheese, eggs, shellfish, fruits and coconut oil, with vitamin E and salt as the safest supplements."

                            - Ray Peat

                            Comment


                            • I see a lot of "blah blah blah, I maintain single digit bodyfat % blah blah" on this forum.

                              How is this being measured? Single digit bodyfat is very impressive for a bunch of non-athletes.
                              The above should be viewed as complete and utter nonsense.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by aliphian View Post
                                I see a lot of "blah blah blah, I maintain single digit bodyfat % blah blah" on this forum.

                                How is this being measured? Single digit bodyfat is very impressive for a bunch of non-athletes.
                                Anyone in particular? I mean I've seen that claim maid EXTREMELY rarely.... so I think you should ask the person your talking bout.

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