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  • #31
    Originally posted by Timthetaco View Post
    Overnutrition and lack of exercise. I've seen at least one study where insulin sensitivity was at least partially restored in Type 2 diabetics with a low calorie diet. It reduced both liver and pancreas fat.

    Here it is, full study: Reversal of type 2 diabetes: normalisation of beta cell function in association with decreased pancreas and liver triacylglycerol
    But haven't some of the low carb exponents like Eric Westman, Steve Phinney & Jeff Volek, the Eades etc, had similar results with the low carb approach?

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    • #32
      Originally posted by Timthetaco View Post
      The reason your fasting blood sugar and A1C improved with the high fat diet is because 1) the typical diet prescribed for diabetes is bullshit, and 2) you bypassed your glucose metabolism entirely. I had my diabetic father go on a ketogenic diet and his A1C dropped from 12 to 6. It wasn't because it restored his insulin sensitivity but because he wasn't eating any glucose that could sit around in the blood and cause damage.
      That makes perfect sense...I have been led to believe that glucose=bad, glucose=high insulin, high insulin=insulin resistance.

      But now I'm questioning that..isn't this the source of the whole 'safe starch' debate?

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      • #33
        Originally posted by PureFunctionalFitness View Post
        But haven't some of the low carb exponents like Eric Westman, Steve Phinney & Jeff Volek, the Eades etc, had similar results with the low carb approach?
        I have no idea. Do you know of any studies? I've seen several people say their diabetes is essentially cured on low carb, but they still can't eat potatoes. Well, if you didn't restore insulin resistance, you didn't cure diabetes.

        Originally posted by otzi View Post
        But now I'm questioning that..isn't this the source of the whole 'safe starch' debate?
        Yes it is.

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        • #34
          Originally posted by Timthetaco View Post
          I have no idea. Do you know of any studies? I've seen several people say their diabetes is essentially cured on low carb, but they still can't eat potatoes. Well, if you didn't restore insulin resistance, you didn't cure diabetes.



          Yes it is.
          I think that the consensus from those people is that you can put Type II diabetes into remission, but if those beta cells are badly damaged, you are never going to get them back to functionality. One of the podcasts on Jimmy Moores site had Westman, I think, saying that a diabetic patient of his was clear of symptoms under 30grms CHO per day, if he went over, the diabetes came back.

          Will dig some stuff up.

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          • #35
            here's a little tidbit

            theheart.org: trusted cardiology news and opinions

            Study Source
            Westman EC, Yancy WS Jr, Mavropoulos JC, Marquart M, McDuffie JR. The effect of a low-carbohydrate, ketogenic diet versus a low-glycemic index diet on glycemic control in type 2 diabetes mellitus. Nutr Metab 2008; DOI:10.1186/1743-7075-5-36. Available at: http://www.nutritionandmetabolism.com/content/5/1/36.
            Last edited by PureFunctionalFitness; 12-15-2012, 11:42 AM.

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            • #36
              Originally posted by Timthetaco View Post
              I have no idea. Do you know of any studies? I've seen several people say their diabetes is essentially cured on low carb, but they still can't eat potatoes. Well, if you didn't restore insulin resistance, you didn't cure diabetes.
              This whole thread kind of gives credence to the "Potato Diet" craze...as it shows that most people who have tried it must not be 'insulin resistant'.

              Good discussion, guys!

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              • #37
                That's the rub, though. He said his "symptoms" were controlled unless he ate carbohydrates. What do you want to bet the symptom was hyperglycemia, and it was "controlled" because he wasn't eating any glucose? And it's hard to say how extensively beta cells are damaged in any one person. The diabetics in the study I linked had insulin sensitivity restored.

                Originally posted by Science
                Forty-nine (58.3%) participants completed the study. Both interventions led to improvements in hemoglobin A1c, fasting glucose, fasting insulin, and weight loss. The LCKD group had greater improvements in hemoglobin A1c (-1.5% vs. -0.5%, p = 0.03), body weight (-11.1 kg vs. -6.9 kg, p = 0.008), and high density lipoprotein cholesterol (+5.6 mg/dL vs. 0 mg/dL, p < 0.001) compared to the LGID group. Diabetes medications were reduced or eliminated in 95.2% of LCKD vs. 62% of LGID participants (p < 0.01).
                All this study was measuring was glycemic control, not insulin resistance. A low carbohydrate diet is always going to win in that regard because, as I said, if you don't eat any glucose, there's none to hang around in your blood to glycate proteins, leading to a lower A1C. If both groups had to take an OGTT at the end of the study, you would find them both very much insulin resistant.

                Ketogenic diets are good at masking the symptoms of diabetes, but it doesn't cure it.

                I have to start my day now. Hope this doesn't turn into a shit storm while I'm gone.
                Last edited by Timthetaco; 12-15-2012, 02:15 PM.

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                • #38
                  Originally posted by PureFunctionalFitness View Post
                  here's a little tidbit

                  theheart.org: trusted cardiology news and opinions

                  Study Source
                  Westman EC, Yancy WS Jr, Mavropoulos JC, Marquart M, McDuffie JR. The effect of a low-carbohydrate, ketogenic diet versus a low-glycemic index diet on glycemic control in type 2 diabetes mellitus. Nutr Metab 2008; DOI:10.1186/1743-7075-5-36. Available at: Nutrition & Metabolism | Full text | The effect of a low-carbohydrate, ketogenic diet versus a low-glycemic index diet on glycemic control in type 2 diabetes mellitus.
                  From link:
                  The key point, Westman continues, is that diabetes is "fixable." That notion has already been demonstrated in the bariatric-surgery literature, he points out. "This is a noninvasive approach, it's not quite as fast, not as drastic, and not as risky as surgery, but it still really reconfirms that with diet and weight change, diabetes is reversible."
                  You know, I always forget about bariatric surgery--it cures T2D, right away, nothing to do with weightloss or macros, just cures it by severing the vagus or something--shows there is more going on than we think.

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                  • #39
                    Originally posted by otzi View Post
                    Good discussion, guys!
                    Fascinating even.
                    65lbs gone and counting!!

                    Fat 2 Fit - One Woman's Journey

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                    • #40
                      Originally posted by otzi View Post
                      From link:

                      You know, I always forget about bariatric surgery--it cures T2D, right away, nothing to do with weightloss or macros, just cures it by severing the vagus or something--shows there is more going on than we think.
                      New evidence is showing relapse in T2D in a large number of patients. While 68.2% of patients had a complete remission of T2D following surgery, 35.1% of the people who were "cured" experienced relapse within 5 years.

                      A Multisite Study of Long-term Remission and Relapse of Type 2 Diabetes Mellitus Following Gastric Bypass - Springer
                      “If I didn't define myself for myself, I would be crunched into other people's fantasies for me and eaten alive.” --Audre Lorde

                      Owly's Journal

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                      • #41
                        From:
                        Whole Health Source: The Carbohydrate Hypothesis of Obesity: a Critical Examination

                        Conclusion

                        I hope you can see by now that the carbohydrate hypothesis of obesity is not only incorrect on a number of levels, but it may even be backward. The reason why obesity and metabolism researchers don't typically subscribe to this idea is that it is contradicted by a large body of evidence from multiple fields. I understand that people like ideas that "challenge conventional wisdom", but the fact is that obesity is a complex state and it will not be shoehorned into simplistic hypotheses.



                        Carbohydrate consumption per se is not behind the obesity epidemic. However, once overweight or obesity is established, carbohydrate restriction can aid fat loss in some people. The mechanism by which this occurs is not totally clear, but there is no evidence that insulin plays a causal role in this process. Carbohydrate restriction spontaneously reduces calorie intake (as does fat restriction to a lesser extent), suggesting the possibility that it alters body fat homeostasis, but there is no compelling evidence that that happens due to a hormonal influence on fat tissue itself. The brain is the primary homeostatic regulator of fat mass, just as it homeostatically regulates blood pressure, breathing rate, and body temperature.

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                        • #42
                          Here is an interesting article by Ron Rosedale on insulin and longevity, old but interesting

                          Insulin, Leptin, Diabetes, and Aging: Not So Strange Bedfellows - Diabetes Health

                          and check this

                          Long-life Link: Gut protein ties low insulin to longevity | Biomedicine | Science News

                          I have not gone through these to evaluate them for quality, some will probably find holes to pick in the hypotheses, but it all adds to the knowledge base

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            I had some time to think about this whole thing...

                            Insulin is excreted into the blood after eating protein or carbohydrate, but not fat.

                            Fat is rarely eaten alone.

                            Carbs and protein are often eaten alone.

                            If one eats a meal containing C, blood glucose rises, the insulin helps clear the blood of excess glucose, because too much is toxic.

                            If someone checks their blood glucose before eating a meal of only protein, and again after, the result is almost the same. Say my blood glucose was 95, I eat a pound of lean chicken breast, then check blood glucose--it's still in the 90-100 range. But how is this possible? Insulin was secreted by my pancreas in response to the protein meal--shouldn't the insulin have made me hypoglycemic? You would think that ingesting no carbs along with an insulin surge would clear any glucose from the blood and cause low blood sugar.

                            So, in the absence of dietary glucose, insulin doesn't act to clear glucose from the blood. But insulin does still, presumably, act to do it's 'other stuff' like putting amino acids into cells, hormone stuff, fat stuff...

                            My takeaway is that circulating glucose is bad outside a narrow band and the healthy body will strive to maintain this narrow band. Dietary glucose will cause spikes in blood glucose. Insulin is a good thing. But, we don't need to eat glucose in order to get the insulin we require.

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                            • #44
                              That is some good thinking. Insulin does a lot more than just the glucose thing, so that would make a lot of sense.

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                              • #45
                                Originally posted by otzi View Post
                                I had some time to think about this whole thing...

                                Insulin is excreted into the blood after eating protein or carbohydrate, but not fat.

                                Fat is rarely eaten alone.

                                Carbs and protein are often eaten alone.

                                If one eats a meal containing C, blood glucose rises, the insulin helps clear the blood of excess glucose, because too much is toxic.

                                If someone checks their blood glucose before eating a meal of only protein, and again after, the result is almost the same. Say my blood glucose was 95, I eat a pound of lean chicken breast, then check blood glucose--it's still in the 90-100 range. But how is this possible? Insulin was secreted by my pancreas in response to the protein meal--shouldn't the insulin have made me hypoglycemic? You would think that ingesting no carbs along with an insulin surge would clear any glucose from the blood and cause low blood sugar.

                                So, in the absence of dietary glucose, insulin doesn't act to clear glucose from the blood. But insulin does still, presumably, act to do it's 'other stuff' like putting amino acids into cells, hormone stuff, fat stuff...

                                My takeaway is that circulating glucose is bad outside a narrow band and the healthy body will strive to maintain this narrow band. Dietary glucose will cause spikes in blood glucose. Insulin is a good thing. But, we don't need to eat glucose in order to get the insulin we require.
                                A lb of lean chicken breast would send my BG soaring. Just 55 g of beef protein jacked it 24 points.

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