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  • #76
    Originally posted by Forgotmylastusername View Post
    I don't really look at percentages. The way I see it is, if you require 50g of protein a day but you're eating 150g, that's triple the amount you require.
    Shoot, i cant find it now but there was a great blog post from Peter at hyperlipid i believe that broke down exactly how much protein people needed when eating maintenance calories and when gaining muscle. It came out ridiculously low like around 50g for a grown man to maintain as long as they were getting enough carbs so none was needed for conversion. And only like an extra couple of grams a day extra to gain mass.

    I truly believe this is true and think the protein hype for mass building or just in general is complete crap. Protein should never be used as energy and adding excessive amounts will definitely stress the body out.

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    • #77
      Originally posted by Forgotmylastusername View Post
      I don't really look at percentages. The way I see it is, if you require 50g of protein a day but you're eating 150g, that's triple the amount you require.
      but, RDA is minimum requirement, not optimal requirement. It's enough to keep you from sickness/death, but not enough to make you healthy/strong. right?

      what I have still been unable to find is where Mark's number comes from. I'm sure it's got a reference somewhere, but I don't know the science behind that number.

      it's a common number -- i've even seen some university nutritionists using it (.7-1g per lb lean body mass). which, btw, if I do that, it puts me *double* the RDA. So, what gives, kwim?

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      • #78
        Originally posted by Zach View Post
        I truly believe this is true and think the protein hype for mass building or just in general is complete crap. Protein should never be used as energy and adding excessive amounts will definitely stress the body out.
        Protein is the wild card...we know the brain requires 150g or so of glucose, which it can get from carbs or ketones. That's 450 calories a day dedicated to the brain. On a 2000kcal a day diet, that leaves 1500 kcal for other energy needs. If we knew exactly how much protein we needed for amino acids to repair and maintain cells, we could really dial in our "Calories In". I think most people eat too much protein and the excess gets converted to whatever and stored as fat.

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        • #79
          I am all ears right now, and Choco and, for once, Derpa, are making sense.

          Well, I can't digest starch at the moment (tried too, and still peeing out of my butt today), but I'll definitely cut back on the massive protein intake. As long as my mood doesn't suffer, that is.

          I realize a total breakdown of my food is a good idea here.

          For protein, I typically start my daily cook-off with more or less a pound of pastured animal product. Beef heart, chicken heart, chicken liver, a few eggs (chicken or duck) , sometimes steak, pork or other odds and ends, etc. I cook it in either coconut oil or tallow (was using bacon fat from cheap bacon, but that really is a yuck now that I'm getting back into giving a darn). I also eat canned fish like mackerel and sardines straight out of the can, and oysters. NO PUFA oils in them, I spend the effort and real every label. Oddly, I often find clean mackerel at dollar stores and Big Lots. Just: Mackerel, water, salt. I know salt could open the gates and let them sneak some stuff in, but, come on, I don't want to get orthorexic, here!

          My main sources of fat are coconut milk (Aroy-D, just coconut and water), eggs, fatty meat like rib, chicken with skin, and previously bacon. I probably eat one or two avocados per day depending on how much they cost each week. And I cook in the aforementioned oils. I also put olive oil on my canned fish after draining the water out. Real olive oil, not fake.

          On top of that, I eat a piece of baking chocolate (or other dark chocolate), a cup of berries, a half-pot of coffee with the coconut milk in it, Sometimes green tea. Sometimes leafy greens, but not lately since they just don't digest.

          Typically some combination of the food listed, in a two-hour window daily, totaling 2500 to 3500 calories at the most.

          So I'll cut protein back to half a pound daily and work on replacing the missing calories with starch. Right? No?

          I IF daily, but will probably try eating small amounts of starch alone on an empty stomach when I get home from work to fix my gut. Maybe I'll just fast one day a week instead of every day. Thoughts?
          Crohn's, doing SCD

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          • #80
            Originally posted by zoebird View Post
            but, RDA is minimum requirement, not optimal requirement. It's enough to keep you from sickness/death, but not enough to make you healthy/strong. right?

            what I have still been unable to find is where Mark's number comes from. I'm sure it's got a reference somewhere, but I don't know the science behind that number.

            it's a common number -- i've even seen some university nutritionists using it (.7-1g per lb lean body mass). which, btw, if I do that, it puts me *double* the RDA. So, what gives, kwim?
            The minimum is even less than the .8 per kg of bodyweight. "Optimal" is very subjective from person to person. A person on a keto diet may require a bit more. You also have to take into account the protein in vegetables, some of which can be fairly high in protein. And even though they might be low in an amino acid it still balances out when you're eating a mixed diet.
            Last edited by Forgotmylastusername; 12-15-2012, 03:35 AM.

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            • #81
              Originally posted by ChocoTaco369 View Post
              The brain always uses glucose. Even in ketosis, ketones only supplement glucose. If there is ever a time your brain is not using glucose, it means you are dead.

              If you are in ketosis, you are in gluconeogenesis.
              Thanks, I am well aware of the brain's use of glucose, was not suggesting that stopped, but with ketones, some dietary carbohydrate in relatively low amounts a la low carb, some gluconeogenesis from dietary protein to make up any deficit, there is not really a need for high carb intake unless you are working out at high intensities, would you agree?
              Last edited by PureFunctionalFitness; 12-15-2012, 03:36 AM.

              Comment


              • #82
                Originally posted by Knifegill View Post
                I am all ears right now, and Choco and, for once, Derpa, are making sense.

                Well, I can't digest starch at the moment (tried too, and still peeing out of my butt today), but I'll definitely cut back on the massive protein intake. As long as my mood doesn't suffer, that is.

                I realize a total breakdown of my food is a good idea here.

                For protein, I typically start my daily cook-off with more or less a pound of pastured animal product. Beef heart, chicken heart, chicken liver, a few eggs (chicken or duck) , sometimes steak, pork or other odds and ends, etc. I cook it in either coconut oil or tallow (was using bacon fat from cheap bacon, but that really is a yuck now that I'm getting back into giving a darn). I also eat canned fish like mackerel and sardines straight out of the can, and oysters. NO PUFA oils in them, I spend the effort and real every label. Oddly, I often find clean mackerel at dollar stores and Big Lots. Just: Mackerel, water, salt. I know salt could open the gates and let them sneak some stuff in, but, come on, I don't want to get orthorexic, here!

                My main sources of fat are coconut milk (Aroy-D, just coconut and water), eggs, fatty meat like rib, chicken with skin, and previously bacon. I probably eat one or two avocados per day depending on how much they cost each week. And I cook in the aforementioned oils. I also put olive oil on my canned fish after draining the water out. Real olive oil, not fake.

                On top of that, I eat a piece of baking chocolate (or other dark chocolate), a cup of berries, a half-pot of coffee with the coconut milk in it, Sometimes green tea. Sometimes leafy greens, but not lately since they just don't digest.

                Typically some combination of the food listed, in a two-hour window daily, totaling 2500 to 3500 calories at the most.

                So I'll cut protein back to half a pound daily and work on replacing the missing calories with starch. Right? No?

                I IF daily, but will probably try eating small amounts of starch alone on an empty stomach when I get home from work to fix my gut. Maybe I'll just fast one day a week instead of every day. Thoughts?
                More gelatin and bone broth. Glycine, the amino acid highest in gelatin/bone broth inhibits lipolysis. Also, the collagen is great for skin vibrancy.

                You need to try eating more sugar from fruit and raw sugar. Starch is metabolized differently than fruit and sugar, and in general is more stressful. You have a compromised metabolism and digestive system. Eat more fruit. Melons, cherries, oranges, etc. Berries just don't cut it, and they have unavoidable seeds and too much fiber.

                Pulp free orange juice is fiber free and lowers insulin resistence: ARS | Publication request: Orange juice consumed regularly decreased the Insulin Resistance in normal subjects

                Another thing... You have a really high dietary iron intake. Do you drink coffee with iron rich meals? Donate blood? Excessive iron is definitely a contributing cause to aging in men.

                I also don't see where you're getting any sufficient calcium in this diet whatsoever, so your phosphorus to calcium ratios are all out of whack. Drink more milk, eat some cheese, etc
                Make America Great Again

                Comment


                • #83
                  Originally posted by Derpamix View Post
                  You need to try eating more sugar from fruit and raw sugar. Starch is metabolized differently than fruit and sugar, and in general is more stressful. You have a compromised metabolism and digestive system.
                  Can you please elaborate? I'd like to know that whenever I going on fruit binges (because honestly, I can't have just a little..is this part of my metabolic derangement?), I am doing myself a favor instead of overloading my liver with 100g fructose to process in a short period of time.
                  My chocolatey Primal journey

                  Unusual food recipes (plus chocolate) blog

                  Comment


                  • #84
                    Are you eating around 10 apples in a very short time sakura_girl???
                    "All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident."

                    - Schopenhauer

                    Comment


                    • #85
                      Originally posted by sakura_girl View Post
                      Can you please elaborate? I'd like to know that whenever I going on fruit binges (because honestly, I can't have just a little..is this part of my metabolic derangement?), I am doing myself a favor instead of overloading my liver with 100g fructose to process in a short period of time.
                      You "binge on it" because it makes you feel better and lowers stress hormones. Fructose does not require assistance of insulin to be metabolized, and doesn't stimulate it.

                      As for the topic, I was referring to the fact starchy vegetables induce insulin resistance and promote aging by increasing levels of endotoxins. Chronic starch consumption means continuous release of TNF-a(Tumor necrosis factor-alpha - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia) which accelerates skin aging.
                      Make America Great Again

                      Comment


                      • #86
                        Originally posted by Derpamix View Post
                        More gelatin and bone broth. Glycine, the amino acid highest in gelatin/bone broth inhibits lipolysis. Also, the collagen is great for skin vibrancy.

                        You need to try eating more sugar from fruit and raw sugar. Starch is metabolized differently than fruit and sugar, and in general is more stressful. You have a compromised metabolism and digestive system. Eat more fruit. Melons, cherries, oranges, etc. Berries just don't cut it, and they have unavoidable seeds and too much fiber.

                        Pulp free orange juice is fiber free and lowers insulin resistence: ARS | Publication request: Orange juice consumed regularly decreased the Insulin Resistance in normal subjects

                        Another thing... You have a really high dietary iron intake. Do you drink coffee with iron rich meals? Donate blood? Excessive iron is definitely a contributing cause to aging in men.

                        I also don't see where you're getting any sufficient calcium in this diet whatsoever, so your phosphorus to calcium ratios are all out of whack. Drink more milk, eat some cheese, etc
                        Please have your iron level checked by a blood test instead of just adjusting diet or supplements and and looking for a response. Donating blood is never a bad thing if you can. Iron overload over a prolonged period has nasty effects on joints, organs and can contribute to death. You eventually develop a grayish or copper tone hue to your skin. Hemochromatosis has impacted my family. I am a carrier, I have relatives who have it and were undiagnosed until much damage was done. Please don't go by how you feel, get your iron levels tested before trying to manipulate its levels in your body.

                        Comment


                        • #87
                          Originally posted by Gorbag View Post
                          Are you eating around 10 apples in a very short time sakura_girl???
                          No, but back when cherries were in season I would eat 2-3 lbs of it in a day. The only fruit that I've been able to only eat one of is pomegranates because they're so damn frustrating to keep eating.

                          Originally posted by Derpamix View Post
                          You "binge on it" because it makes you feel better and lowers stress hormones. Fructose does not require assistance of insulin to be metabolized, and doesn't stimulate it.

                          As for the topic, I was referring to the fact starchy vegetables induce insulin resistance and promote aging by increasing levels of endotoxins. Chronic starch consumption means continuous release of TNF-a(Tumor necrosis factor-alpha - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia) which accelerates skin aging.
                          Isn't it stressful for the liver to process all the fructose, though?
                          My chocolatey Primal journey

                          Unusual food recipes (plus chocolate) blog

                          Comment


                          • #88
                            Originally posted by sakura_girl View Post
                            Isn't it stressful for the liver to process all the fructose, though?
                            No, tests on that are skewed given that the subjects(rats, I believe) were being fed an unrealistically high amount of pure fructose. Fruit isn't comprised of entirely fructose, and it has other mechanisms to assemble proper metabolizing.

                            The liver isn't the only organ that metabolizes fructose either, it just has the highest capacity.
                            Make America Great Again

                            Comment


                            • #89
                              Knife, after reading you above quote, i would parrot exactly as Derp said. You probably have an Iron overload, your phosphorous to calcium ratios are heavily skewed, probably a toxic excess of Pufa and a a huge amount of inflammatory aminos like tryptophan and methionine. Add to this almost zero carbohydrates and you have a perfect storm of inflammation.

                              Honestly im surprised you feel well, i would expect you to have some major joint pains or something.

                              Anyway not to be mean but i would say that you already do have orthorexia and its not doing you any favors. Start by dropping the meato very low, 3-6oz a day, add in some dairy (cheese usually digests best for people who avoid dairy), add in a gelatin source and start getting the majority of your calories from fruit and fruit juice. Even if you think this is complete bullshit, it will not kill you to try it for a week and you might be very surprised at how you feel.

                              Comment


                              • #90
                                Originally posted by sakura_girl View Post
                                No, but back when cherries were in season I would eat 2-3 lbs of it in a day. The only fruit that I've been able to only eat one of is pomegranates because they're so damn frustrating to keep eating.
                                Not a big deal, since 2 lbs of cherries only contains around 31 gram of fructose, and you are eating them during the day and not in a sitting. Not that it should matter anything at all to eat them in one sitting either...

                                Nutrition Facts and Analysis for Cherries, sour, red, raw
                                "All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident."

                                - Schopenhauer

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