Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Glycogen is maintained and replenished during ketosis.

Collapse
X
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • #46
    Originally posted by Paleobird View Post

    And bestbetter's point that a study on epileptics has no relevance outside of people with that condition is just plain false. There are no physiological differences in how the rest of the body works (yes, the brain wiring is different) between epileptics and non-epileptics. for example, my thyroid is not any different because I have epilepsy.
    There are far more aspects of how the human body functions that doctors don't know about than what they do know. I wonder how anyone could ever say with certainty that serious conditions or disorders DON'T affect the dynamics of complicated interrelated body functions since there are so many basic things that we still don't understand.

    Comment


    • #47
      Originally posted by BestBetter View Post
      There are far more aspects of how the human body functions that doctors don't know about than what they do know. I wonder how anyone could ever say with certainty that serious conditions or disorders DON'T affect the dynamics of complicated interrelated body functions since there are so many basic things that we still don't understand.
      Right. We don't understand everything yet. So let's just toss out as irrelevant a huge data set from a very well controlled long term medically supervised observation of a lot of people.

      Comment


      • #48
        Originally posted by Paleobird View Post
        Right. We don't understand everything yet. So let's just toss out as irrelevant a huge data set from a very well controlled long term medically supervised observation of a lot of people.
        I think the data from that can be used to justify further human trials in non-epileptic individuals as being relatively unlikely to cause harm, but I don't think we have enough solid data on ketosis in the general population or in high-level athletes to know how effective it is or isn't. I'd like to see more properly controlled studies on it, personally, and ones that examined the variables that might cause some individuals to have better experiences with it than others. I expect that there are likely other metabolic factors going on that affect how good someone might feel on a ketogenic diet.

        What I'm saying is, yes, we know that controlled, intentional ketosis can be a safe diet for a large subset of humans, so now let's find out more rather than assuming either that that data proves that ketosis is good for all people or that ketosis is terrible for all people. I expect that it's more nuanced than that.
        “If I didn't define myself for myself, I would be crunched into other people's fantasies for me and eaten alive.” --Audre Lorde

        Owly's Journal

        Comment


        • #49
          Originally posted by Owly View Post
          What I'm saying is, yes, we know that controlled, intentional ketosis can be a safe diet for a large subset of humans, so now let's find out more rather than assuming either that that data proves that ketosis is good for all people or that ketosis is terrible for all people. I expect that it's more nuanced than that.
          But Owly!

          You know they'd just rather make bold, unfounded claims than spend time collecting more nuanced evidence or conducting studies to back up their points. Human nature, you know. Being lazy is just so much more fun!

          [Totally agreeing with you on this though.]
          "The cling and a clang is the metal in my head when I walk. I hear a sort of, this tinging noise - cling clang. The cling clang. So many things happen while walking. The metal in my head clangs and clings as I walk - freaks my balance out. So the natural thought is just clogged up. Totally clogged up. So we need to unplug these dams, and make the the natural flow... It sort of freaks me out. We need to unplug the dams. You cannot stop the natural flow of thought with a cling and a clang..."

          Comment


          • #50
            Originally posted by Owly View Post
            I think the data from that can be used to justify further human trials in non-epileptic individuals as being relatively unlikely to cause harm, but I don't think we have enough solid data on ketosis in the general population or in high-level athletes to know how effective it is or isn't. I'd like to see more properly controlled studies on it, personally, and ones that examined the variables that might cause some individuals to have better experiences with it than others. I expect that there are likely other metabolic factors going on that affect how good someone might feel on a ketogenic diet.

            What I'm saying is, yes, we know that controlled, intentional ketosis can be a safe diet for a large subset of humans, so now let's find out more rather than assuming either that that data proves that ketosis is good for all people or that ketosis is terrible for all people. I expect that it's more nuanced than that.
            Well put Owly. I never said that the available data conclusively proved anything only that it is relevant to the discussion and a basis for further study.

            The subset of the population that has been studied, epileptics, were studied because they had a clear and present need for this intervention. And it works long term *without causing any adverse effects*. This does not prove that ketosis for everyone all the time is optimal either but it does deflate some of the more alarmist, "ketosis makes your hair fall out and your penis fall off" sort of memes.

            Comment


            • #51
              Originally posted by Owly View Post
              I think the data from that can be used to justify further human trials in non-epileptic individuals as being relatively unlikely to cause harm, but I don't think we have enough solid data on ketosis in the general population or in high-level athletes to know how effective it is or isn't.
              Effective for what? Athletes have been experimenting with different types of diets for hundreds of years, so I suppose that if a ketogenic diet was superior or even equal to a high carb diet for glycogen replenishment somebody would have used it? But as we know, a high level of glycogen storage is not that important in all kind of sports, so if your sport is olympic shooting or diving there may not be any noticable difference...
              "All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident."

              - Schopenhauer

              Comment


              • #52
                Originally posted by Gorbag View Post
                Effective for what? Athletes have been experimenting with different types of diets for hundreds of years, so I suppose that if a ketogenic diet was superior or even equal to a high carb diet for glycogen replenishment somebody would have used it? But as we know, a high level of glycogen storage is not that important in all kind of sports, so if your sport is olympic shooting or diving there may not be any noticable difference...
                Honestly, I think that the evidence is on the side of carbs on the athletic side, and I have no fear of eating my starches. When I tried VLC (sub 50g) I totally ran out of gas lifting and doing metcons. Adding carbs back into my diet had a noticeable effect on performance, and I've seen better fat loss and body recomp as well.

                However, I'm a researcher (professionally now even!), and although I'm not in the hard sciences, I think that having solid research to show the effects of ketogenic diets is useful. I think most sport nutrition research points in the direction of carbs as a requirement for high-level performance, but there might be contexts where that might not hold true or when train-low, race-high theories could be borne out by well-designed trials. Without solid research, we don't have conclusive evidence one way or the other.

                I'm posting this as I eat my third mandarin orange of the day (and I also had some rice at lunch), so I'm definitely not coming from an anti-carb perspective. I am, however, coming from a pro-science one.
                “If I didn't define myself for myself, I would be crunched into other people's fantasies for me and eaten alive.” --Audre Lorde

                Owly's Journal

                Comment


                • #53
                  My personal n=1 is that I do better lifting when I'm in ketosis. On the other hand, my cardio tends to suffer a bit (even the mild stuff). Still, I do it anyway because it's good for me as long as I don't abuse it.

                  But that just goes to show that even for athletic performance, the response to carb or ketone fueled energy can be quite diverse and individual depending on the person.
                  "The cling and a clang is the metal in my head when I walk. I hear a sort of, this tinging noise - cling clang. The cling clang. So many things happen while walking. The metal in my head clangs and clings as I walk - freaks my balance out. So the natural thought is just clogged up. Totally clogged up. So we need to unplug these dams, and make the the natural flow... It sort of freaks me out. We need to unplug the dams. You cannot stop the natural flow of thought with a cling and a clang..."

                  Comment


                  • #54
                    To be fair and to acknowledge the science - the vast majority of athletes weren't in a position to count carbs as recently as 50-100 years ago. They could only approach optimising their nutrition from an intuitive and painstaking trial-and-error perspective.

                    Sports science is a very young and applied science, hanging off more pure scientific research.
                    F 5 ft 3. HW: 196 lbs. Primal SW (May 2011): 182 lbs (42% BF)... W June '12: 160 lbs (29% BF) (UK size 12, US size 8). GW: ~24% BF - have ditched the scales til I fit into a pair of UK size 10 bootcut jeans. Currently aligning towards 'The Perfect Health Diet' having swapped some fat for potatoes.

                    Comment


                    • #55
                      As someone who's doing a lot of public health research these days, I'm personally a fan of applied science and don't tend to view sports science as something "hanging off" pure sciences but rather as its own rather important category that bridges a number of areas of inquiry in the biological and social sciences.
                      “If I didn't define myself for myself, I would be crunched into other people's fantasies for me and eaten alive.” --Audre Lorde

                      Owly's Journal

                      Comment


                      • #56
                        "The Art and Science of Low Carbohydrate Performance" by Phinney and Volek has some interesting information and references particularly regarding the "train low, race high" protocol mentioned by Owly above in case anyone is interested in checking it out.

                        Comment


                        • #57
                          Originally posted by Owly View Post
                          As someone who's doing a lot of public health research these days, I'm personally a fan of applied science and don't tend to view sports science as something "hanging off" pure sciences but rather as its own rather important category that bridges a number of areas of inquiry in the biological and social sciences.
                          I wasn't knocking applied science in terms of benefit to the human race. I've contributed to it myself and am also a fan.

                          However, I see no value or rationale in claiming that it doesn't hang off pure science.
                          F 5 ft 3. HW: 196 lbs. Primal SW (May 2011): 182 lbs (42% BF)... W June '12: 160 lbs (29% BF) (UK size 12, US size 8). GW: ~24% BF - have ditched the scales til I fit into a pair of UK size 10 bootcut jeans. Currently aligning towards 'The Perfect Health Diet' having swapped some fat for potatoes.

                          Comment


                          • #58
                            Originally posted by paleo-bunny View Post
                            I wasn't knocking applied science in terms of benefit to the human race. I've contributed to it myself and am also a fan.

                            However, I see no value or rationale in claiming that it doesn't hang off pure science.
                            Perhaps it's a difference in connotative meaning based on culture, but I perceive a negative aspect to the phrase "hanging off" that you may not have intended. To me, it has an implication of it being a lesser science or one that's riding the coattails of "real" science. I think sports science incorporates elements of pure science and both draws from and informs research in more pure biosci areas.
                            “If I didn't define myself for myself, I would be crunched into other people's fantasies for me and eaten alive.” --Audre Lorde

                            Owly's Journal

                            Comment


                            • #59
                              Originally posted by Owly View Post
                              Perhaps it's a difference in connotative meaning based on culture, but I perceive a negative aspect to the phrase "hanging off" that you may not have intended. To me, it has an implication of it being a lesser science or one that's riding the coattails of "real" science. I think sports science incorporates elements of pure science and both draws from and informs research in more pure biosci areas.
                              That certainly wan't intended. My intention was to highlight the fact that glycogen levels were not on the radar of athletes a century ago.
                              F 5 ft 3. HW: 196 lbs. Primal SW (May 2011): 182 lbs (42% BF)... W June '12: 160 lbs (29% BF) (UK size 12, US size 8). GW: ~24% BF - have ditched the scales til I fit into a pair of UK size 10 bootcut jeans. Currently aligning towards 'The Perfect Health Diet' having swapped some fat for potatoes.

                              Comment


                              • #60
                                Well, so when you two are discussing "sport science" your just talking sports nutrition then right?

                                In that light its as soft a science as any other in the biological field.

                                Comment

                                Working...
                                X