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Glycogen is maintained and replenished during ketosis.

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  • #31
    Originally posted by Paleobird View Post
    Obviously they were kids, not competitive bodybuilders. But what their example show is that it is very possible to lead a perfectly normal, physically active life as a growing youngster on a ketogenic diet without any adverse effects to health. Kids burn though a lot of glycogen too.

    The studies on adult epileptics have not been going on for as many decades so there is not such a huge body of evidence yet but the exact same thing is happening so far in the studies done at Johns Hopkins.
    Ketosis works out pretty well for fetuses and newborns, too.

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    • #32
      Originally posted by Paleobird View Post
      Obviously they were kids, not competitive bodybuilders. But what their example show is that it is very possible to lead a perfectly normal, physically active life as a growing youngster on a ketogenic diet without any adverse effects to health.
      Actually, if only kids with epilepsy were put on this diet, then it shows that it's possible for kids with epilepsy to lead normal, physically active lives on a ketogenic diet...it's possible that the differences in their brains and bodies as a result of their epilepsy cause them to respond differently to a keto diet. It doesn't mean it's a healthy diet for people without epilepsy.

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      • #33
        Originally posted by BestBetter View Post
        Actually, if only kids with epilepsy were put on this diet, then it shows that it's possible for kids with epilepsy to lead normal, physically active lives on a ketogenic diet...it's possible that the differences in their brains and bodies as a result of their epilepsy cause them to respond differently to a keto diet. It doesn't mean it's a healthy diet for people without epilepsy.
        It doesn't mean it ISN'T either. I would caution against making blanket statements at least until more research has been conducted.

        I won't make claims one way or the other, but I WILL say that we could stand to have more research on the efficiency and safety of ketogenic diets in the long term. I eagerly await more knowledge on this subject.
        "The cling and a clang is the metal in my head when I walk. I hear a sort of, this tinging noise - cling clang. The cling clang. So many things happen while walking. The metal in my head clangs and clings as I walk - freaks my balance out. So the natural thought is just clogged up. Totally clogged up. So we need to unplug these dams, and make the the natural flow... It sort of freaks me out. We need to unplug the dams. You cannot stop the natural flow of thought with a cling and a clang..."

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        • #34
          Originally posted by BestBetter View Post
          Actually, if only kids with epilepsy were put on this diet, then it shows that it's possible for kids with epilepsy to lead normal, physically active lives on a ketogenic diet...it's possible that the differences in their brains and bodies as a result of their epilepsy cause them to respond differently to a keto diet. It doesn't mean it's a healthy diet for people without epilepsy.
          It's not without risks and adverse side effects for the kids on the diet. They have to be closely monitored and supplemented and even then not all kids can stay on the diet.

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          • #35
            Originally posted by Paleobird View Post
            Obviously they were kids, not competitive bodybuilders. But what their example show is that it is very possible to lead a perfectly normal, physically active life as a growing youngster on a ketogenic diet without any adverse effects to health.
            sorry, but isn't this basically a red herring in this thread? fact is that muscle glycogen is not well maintained or replenished on a ketogenic diet. i'm glad that it works for these kids, but that's not really what's being debated here.

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            • #36
              Originally posted by The Study
              Immediately before the exercise, on completion of the exercise, and at 30 min intervals thereafter, six animals from each group ... were anaesthetized by a subcutaneous injection of pentobarbitol (dose = 4 mg/100 g body weight). As soon as each rat could be handled easily it was killed by decapitation, in a room away from the other animals.
              Sure does suck to be a lab rat.

              Originally posted by The Scientist
              Lastly, it eases my concerns about keeping up a heavy lifting routine while in ketosis, which I plan to try out starting this week.
              Why? These rats were doing light cardio for an hour. I don't think you can extrapolate the results of this study to heavy lifting. The researchers even state in the summary, "There was very little resynthesis of muscle glycogen recovery..."

              Also, if I'm not reading incorrectly, the rats were only on a low carbohydrate diet for a week during their training before the training day. It seems this study says absolutely nothing about glycogen replenishment on a consistent ketogenic diet with frequent strength training. More than likely you'll crap out like most people who try. To each their own, though.
              Last edited by Timthetaco; 12-10-2012, 10:40 PM.

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              • #37
                Originally posted by jakey View Post
                sorry, but isn't this basically a red herring in this thread? fact is that muscle glycogen is not well maintained or replenished on a ketogenic diet. i'm glad that it works for these kids, but that's not really what's being debated here.
                I know it's not the central focus of the thread. I only brought it up because someone was contending that the only study subjects to ever have been in ketosis had all been rats.

                The fact that growing kids who burn though glycogen like little furnaces can live very well on this diet is relevant to the discussion.

                And bestbetter's point that a study on epileptics has no relevance outside of people with that condition is just plain false. There are no physiological differences in how the rest of the body works (yes, the brain wiring is different) between epileptics and non-epileptics. for example, my thyroid is not any different because I have epilepsy.

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                • #38
                  Originally posted by Forgotmylastusername View Post
                  It's not without risks and adverse side effects for the kids on the diet. They have to be closely monitored and supplemented and even then not all kids can stay on the diet.
                  The only risk is if the kid's diet is not varied enough to provide a broad range of nutrients. It is difficult as a parent to impose this program on a child who doesn't understand what is happening and why they can't have candy bars like their friends. It is also difficult to get a kid to eat liver. As an adult it is very easy to stay with this program and get complete nutrition, no supplementation needed.

                  The more modern research is backing off of the extreme levels of fat required in some of the earlier versions of this program that you may have read about. Instead of 80/10/10 (f/p/c) they are now finding equally good results with 60/30/10.

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                  • #39
                    Originally posted by Paleobird View Post
                    The only risk is if the kid's diet is not varied enough to provide a broad range of nutrients. It is difficult as a parent to impose this program on a child who doesn't understand what is happening and why they can't have candy bars like their friends. It is also difficult to get a kid to eat liver. As an adult it is very easy to stay with this program and get complete nutrition, no supplementation needed.

                    The more modern research is backing off of the extreme levels of fat required in some of the earlier versions of this program that you may have read about. Instead of 80/10/10 (f/p/c) they are now finding equally good results with 60/30/10.
                    Paleo, is there some minimum level of carbs you try to eat daily? What would happen if you ate zero carbs for an extended period, say indefinitely? I think I am a gluconeogenesis machine easily capable of making more glucose than I need.

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                    • #40
                      Originally posted by Timthetaco View Post
                      Sure does suck to be a lab rat.
                      How would you like to be these lab rats? How our nerves regulate insulin secretion

                      Researchers at Karolinska Institutet in Sweden have managed to graft beta cells into the eyes of mice in order to study them in a living organism over a prolonged period of time. As a result, the group and a team of colleagues from the University of Miami have gained detailed knowledge of how the autonomic nervous system regulates beta-cell insulin secretion.

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                      • #41
                        Originally posted by Artbuc View Post
                        Paleo, is there some minimum level of carbs you try to eat daily? What would happen if you ate zero carbs for an extended period, say indefinitely? I think I am a gluconeogenesis machine easily capable of making more glucose than I need.
                        I go for a maximum level not a minimum. I'm not counting and measuring these days since I've lost all the weight I wanted to but I know that I stay under about 30/day. Most of that comes from the high fat dairy products I eat. I too feel no need to deliberately eat carbs for any reason. The ones I do eat are kind of incidental.

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                        • #42
                          Originally posted by Paleobird View Post
                          I go for a maximum level not a minimum. I'm not counting and measuring these days since I've lost all the weight I wanted to but I know that I stay under about 30/day. Most of that comes from the high fat dairy products I eat. I too feel no need to deliberately eat carbs for any reason. The ones I do eat are kind of incidental.
                          Thanks....same here. Eg, my dinner was an 8 oz Fage 2% yogurt @ 8 g, an avocado @ 2-3 g (net) and swiss cheese @ 2 g. Another 4-5 g from my shredded coconut and cacao nibs. I had to wait one hour before eating my shredded coconut/nibs to keep my 1 hr postprandial at 140. It is very unusual for me to eat yogurt and avocado on the same day, let alone at the same meal.
                          Last edited by Artbuc; 12-11-2012, 02:51 PM.

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                          • #43
                            Originally posted by Paleobird View Post
                            I go for a maximum level not a minimum. I'm not counting and measuring these days since I've lost all the weight I wanted to but I know that I stay under about 30/day. Most of that comes from the high fat dairy products I eat. I too feel no need to deliberately eat carbs for any reason. The ones I do eat are kind of incidental.
                            I'm the same way, though I try to make sure the majority of my carbs are from veggies and not much else. Also, is that a TOTAL figure for you Paleobird, or is that net?
                            "The cling and a clang is the metal in my head when I walk. I hear a sort of, this tinging noise - cling clang. The cling clang. So many things happen while walking. The metal in my head clangs and clings as I walk - freaks my balance out. So the natural thought is just clogged up. Totally clogged up. So we need to unplug these dams, and make the the natural flow... It sort of freaks me out. We need to unplug the dams. You cannot stop the natural flow of thought with a cling and a clang..."

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              Originally posted by Drumroll View Post
                              I'm the same way, though I try to make sure the majority of my carbs are from veggies and not much else. Also, is that a TOTAL figure for you Paleobird, or is that net?
                              I have gone back and forth on that question. I think it's ok to subtract fiber grams from the total but not those weird sugar alcohols that are in some supposedly "low carb" products as if those carbs somehow didn't count.

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                              • #45
                                Originally posted by Paleobird View Post
                                I have gone back and forth on that question. I think it's ok to subtract fiber grams from the total but not those weird sugar alcohols that are in some supposedly "low carb" products as if those carbs somehow didn't count.
                                I don't subtract the alcohols either. But aside from the odd piece of gum a friend offers me after a meal out, I never get them anyway. Heh. I think they aren't likely to bump you out of ketosis unless you ingest a ton of them, but why take that risk if you don't have to?

                                Also, I too agree with net carbs. The blood sugar impact from fiber (IF there is ANY) would be extremely low and I've read that fiber can even slow down blood sugar spikes in some cases so as to be beneficial.

                                I make the majority of my carbs from veggies just to make sure I can still eat adequate plant matter and get proper nutritional balance in my diet.
                                "The cling and a clang is the metal in my head when I walk. I hear a sort of, this tinging noise - cling clang. The cling clang. So many things happen while walking. The metal in my head clangs and clings as I walk - freaks my balance out. So the natural thought is just clogged up. Totally clogged up. So we need to unplug these dams, and make the the natural flow... It sort of freaks me out. We need to unplug the dams. You cannot stop the natural flow of thought with a cling and a clang..."

                                Comment

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