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  • #46
    Thanks, i have since figured it out.

    I know peat thinks that liberating FFA on a weightloss diet also contributes to the problem. Since most on a paleo diet are losing weight, i wonder how much that coulf factor in.

    Anyway, interesting topic.

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    • #47
      Originally posted by Zach View Post
      Thanks, i have since figured it out.

      I know peat thinks that liberating FFA on a weightloss diet also contributes to the problem. Since most on a paleo diet are losing weight, i wonder how much that coulf factor in.

      Anyway, interesting topic.
      That is actually quit interesting since fats liberated very well could be some of the more problematic types from several months ago up to two years ago. I've heard story of up to two years, but I have no science to cite to back up any estimates. Just some blurbs I've read.

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      • #48
        Originally posted by Neckhammer View Post
        I read the Peat article and don't see a single instance of PUFA "harmful effect" from eating a whole food such as almonds as part of the diet. Please cite me something...anything that alludes to such damage. Preferably from this century and not in some genetically altered animal model, of course if thats all you got you can list it I suppose.

        I'm not saying that you should make PUFA your primary fat source. I agree that it should be saturated/monosaturated then PUFA. But, I have read some Peat people attempting to eat as close to 0 PUFA as they can and eliminating healthy foods to do so in some biochemically warped view that it will make them superhuman.

        So back to the original proposition. Find me any paper that quantifies PUFA damage from a whole food such as almonds. I'm really curious now. Oh, one other stipulation...no data on some frankenoils that are not Primal anyhow.
        "Whole foods" don't just magically negate polyunsaturated fats, I seriously don't understand what you're expecting. You're not finding anything because you're searching for something asinine. It's well documented already the detrimental effect on human health that polyunsaturated fatty acids have.

        Rancidity of seed oils is not even relevant to the topic, it's something else entirely. Just because it's not a seed oil, doesn't mean it changes mechanisms. It increases oxidative stress because it contains two or more double bonds between carbon atoms. Double bonds extremely susceptible to oxidation. When oxidized, it attracts oxygen causing binding and turning it into a peroxyl radical. Which is where the harmful effects on cellular membrane, dna, etc come in play.

        The only thing vitamin e helps with is stopping the random oxidation(peroxidation), which causes tissue damaging free radicals. Controlled oxidation still takes place, as I described above.

        Your "whole food" nuts, have enzyme inhibitors and anti-nutrients anyway.
        Make America Great Again

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        • #49
          Originally posted by Derpamix View Post
          "Whole foods" don't just magically negate polyunsaturated fats.....
          No cites or scientific studies? Ok, cool. Just making sure.

          Two problems. One: you state PUFA without discussing any difference because you find even O3 is detrimental. Two: you have yet to quantify what amount is toxic and show that it remains so when you get that much from say almonds. The dose makes the poison right? So what dose of PUFA is the toxic load and do you have any studies to back that up?

          There are plenty of populations living on tons of fish to ripe old ages. Unless Peat busts the barrier and lives past 120, I'm gonna suppose that fish and nuts are fine as a portion of our diet. Which is actually part of my issue with Peats work. He ignores traditional or evolutionary frame work completely relying only on a reductionistic biochemical model that is ....incomplete.... is probably the best word for it. Otherwise though I like the guy. Obviously he's a smart fella in his field. I don't see him out pimping his diet and saying its the holy grail. Just his followers do that part.

          Meh, again you've dragged a thread off topic. I'm done here unless you have some relevant studies about perhaps people that introduce nuts or fish to their diets and suffer ill effect.
          Last edited by Neckhammer; 12-06-2012, 06:15 PM.

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          • #50
            Something tells me you don't have a decent grasp of biochemistry, and I don't need a citation for that.

            You can, however, tell me exactly what you think is in an almond that will negate the oxidation of pufa. I'd honestly like to know.
            Make America Great Again

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            • #51
              Unable to walk due to excess meat? And you people mock some posters' reactions to grains.
              "Right is right, even if no one is doing it; wrong is wrong, even if everyone is doing it." - St. Augustine

              B*tch-lite

              Who says back fat is a bad thing? Maybe on a hairy guy at the beach, but not on a crab.

              Comment


              • #52
                Originally posted by Derpamix View Post
                Something tells me you don't have a decent grasp of biochemistry, and I don't need a citation for that.

                You can, however, tell me exactly what you think is in an almond that will negate the oxidation of pufa. I'd honestly like to know.
                Enough to recognize that outdated studies done on genetically altered lab rats don't always correlate so well with what actually happens in the human body. But, I'm still waiting for some actual science from you anyhow. I'll help you and say that I have read some things indicating an upper limit....but, what I have read does not make the upper limit zero.

                Perhaps the reason a Peat person needs to keep PUFA so low is simply because they eat so much fructose and simple sugars? That makes sense since PUFA is most reactive to that producing the AGEs and other damage. However, I'm low carb...so I would suspect my tolerance for PUFA is quit a bit better than yours. And I would suppose someone who gets their carbs from startch (more glucose less fructose) would also be better off.
                Last edited by Neckhammer; 12-06-2012, 06:38 PM.

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                • #53
                  Originally posted by Neckhammer View Post
                  Enough to recognize that outdated studies done on genetically altered lab rats don't always correlate so well with what actually happens in the human body. But, I'm still waiting for some actual science from you anyhow. I'll help you and say that I have read some things indicating an upper limit....but, what I have read does not make the upper limit zero.

                  Perhaps the reason a Peat person needs to keep PUFA so low is simply because they eat so much fructose and simple sugars? That makes sense since PUFA is most reactive to that producing the AGEs and other damage. However, I'm low carb...so I would suspect my tolerance for PUFA is quit a bit better than yours. And I would suppose someone who gets their carbs from startch (more glucose less fructose) would also be better off.
                  It's impossible to entirely cut out pufa, it has at least trace amounts in everything. Keeping it to a minimum is only beneficial, establishing an arbitrary upper limit is futile. Obviously the more you consume, the more prevalent the effects will be and the harder it will be for your body to detoxify and replace it with healthier fats.

                  When pufas are kept to a minimum, your body synthesizes mead acid, a stable fatty acid that displaces pufa in tissues and suppresses leukotrienes.

                  It's the opposite, if anything someone following a Peat protocol entirely will be better able to handle the negative effects of pufa. Things like supplemental aspirin(helps against the hormone products following oxidation) and an ideal calcium to phosphorus ratio.

                  read: Randle cycle

                  High free fatty acids in the blood impair glucose metabolism period, as well as muscle glycogen synthesis.
                  Make America Great Again

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                  • #54
                    Originally posted by JoanieL View Post
                    Unable to walk due to excess meat? And you people mock some posters' reactions to grains.
                    Yeah, your mom was shocked too.

                    Hahahahahaha
                    Make America Great Again

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                    • #55
                      Originally posted by Derpamix View Post
                      It's impossible to entirely cut out pufa, it has at least trace amounts in everything. Keeping it to a minimum is only beneficial, establishing an arbitrary upper limit is futile. Obviously the more you consume, the more prevalent the effects will be and the harder it will be for your body to detoxify and replace it with healthier fats.

                      When pufas are kept to a minimum, your body synthesizes mead acid, a stable fatty acid that displaces pufa in tissues and suppresses leukotrienes.

                      It's the opposite, if anything someone following a Peat protocol entirely will be better able to handle the negative effects of pufa. Things like supplemental aspirin(helps against the hormone products following oxidation) and an ideal calcium to phosphorus ratio.

                      read: Randle cycle

                      High free fatty acids in the blood impair glucose metabolism period, as well as muscle glycogen synthesis.
                      Bunch of statements without sufficient context or studies makes for a no value comment.

                      Ok, for instance I said high PUFA in the presence of sugar is what you would be more concerned about (thats context) ....so for that I might list a scientific article Lipid advanced glycosylation: pathw... [Proc Natl Acad Sci U S A. 1993] - PubMed - NCBI and instead of extrapolating on that particular article i may mark a blog post that breaks it down since I don't have access to the full article Hyperlipid: AGE, RAGE and ALE: The ALE of LDL. Thats context and a bit of science. You provide neither.

                      In the end I can agree that if your gonna eat much PUFA you should avoid sugar. And since I see no reason to eat sugar anyhow, its easy for me. I'm not about to start trading out salmon for some tasteless fish because it has too much O3 (could list some studies showing these to be healthful, but that would be quite redundant). In context of a Primal diet the PUFA consumption (which like i said is the least of the fats) is not detrimental. Some nuts...not detrimental. Whole foods everyday like avocado, salmon, and almonds are good for you. Most whole foods come paired with the antioxidants that our body needs and little to NO sugar with the PUFA (funny how works out in nature aint it?)
                      Last edited by Neckhammer; 12-06-2012, 07:44 PM.

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                      • #56
                        Originally posted by Derpamix View Post
                        Yeah, your mom was shocked too.

                        Hahahahahaha
                        Wow, you're a class act. I'd rather be my mother, dead at 74 from following bad advice than be the likes of a low life trailer trash bitch like you.

                        Your mother probabaly took one look at you and wished she'd aborted.
                        Last edited by JoanieL; 12-06-2012, 07:40 PM.
                        "Right is right, even if no one is doing it; wrong is wrong, even if everyone is doing it." - St. Augustine

                        B*tch-lite

                        Who says back fat is a bad thing? Maybe on a hairy guy at the beach, but not on a crab.

                        Comment


                        • #57
                          Originally posted by Derpamix View Post
                          Yeah, your mom was shocked too.

                          Hahahahahaha
                          Aaaand boom goes the dynamite.

                          Comment


                          • #58
                            Originally posted by Neckhammer View Post
                            Bunch of statements without sufficient context or studies makes for a no value comment.

                            Ok, for instance I said high PUFA in the presence of sugar is what you would be more concerned about (thats context) ....so for that I might list a scientific article Lipid advanced glycosylation: pathw... [Proc Natl Acad Sci U S A. 1993] - PubMed - NCBI and instead of extrapolating on that particular article i may mark a blog post that breaks it down since I don't have access to the full article Hyperlipid: AGE, RAGE and ALE: The ALE of LDL. Thats context and a bit of science. You provide neither.

                            In the end I can agree that if your gonna eat much PUFA you should avoid sugar. And since I see no reason to eat sugar anyhow, its easy for me. I'm not about to start trading out salmon for some tasteless fish because it has too much O3 (could list some studies showing these to be healthful, but that would be quite redundant). In context of a Primal diet the PUFA consumption (which like i said is the least of the fats) is not detrimental. Some nuts...not detrimental. Whole foods everyday like avocado, salmon, and almonds are good for you. Most whole foods come paired with the antioxidants that our body needs and little to NO sugar with the PUFA (funny how works out in nature aint it?)
                            The research spans across decades and it's exhaustive. What I did was take many studies and condense them. If you'd really like, I can link them, but I'm sure you're just being difficult.

                            Wow, you're a class act. I'd rather be my mother, dead at 74 from following bad advice than be the likes of a low life trailer trash bitch like you.

                            Your mother probabaly took one look at you and wished she'd aborted.
                            All that anger probably isn't good for you. First time I've seen someone get that upset over a "your mom" joke. You must be a real pleasant person to be around.
                            Make America Great Again

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                            • #59
                              Derpadork stated:
                              All that anger probably isn't good for you. First time I've seen someone get that upset over a "your mom" joke. You must be a real pleasant person to be around.
                              I agree, I think when someone online (i.e., anonymous and cowardly) stoops to using others' relatives about whom another has posted, real anger isn't warranted. However, you've behaved in a manner that justifies a little spanking. Sorry if you can't handle it. You should stfu if you can't.

                              I'm only pleasant to be around for people that have manners and behave in an acceptable manner. Low-rent crumb catchers can kiss my ass. Except you. I don't want you to kiss my ass. I'd have to sink too far into the gutter. Your mother must have been a real piece of garbage to raise the likes of you.
                              "Right is right, even if no one is doing it; wrong is wrong, even if everyone is doing it." - St. Augustine

                              B*tch-lite

                              Who says back fat is a bad thing? Maybe on a hairy guy at the beach, but not on a crab.

                              Comment


                              • #60
                                Originally posted by JoanieL View Post
                                Derpadork stated:

                                I agree, I think when someone online (i.e., anonymous and cowardly) stoops to using others' relatives about whom another has posted, real anger isn't warranted. However, you've behaved in a manner that justifies a little spanking. Sorry if you can't handle it. You should stfu if you can't.

                                I'm only pleasant to be around for people that have manners and behave in an acceptable manner. Low-rent crumb catchers can kiss my ass. Except you. I don't want you to kiss my ass. I'd have to sink too far into the gutter. Your mother must have been a real piece of garbage to raise the likes of you.
                                Sorry, I'm not going to be drawn into a pissing match with a buffoon who can't even see their own hypocrisy. Insult me all you want, but you have less worth than the crumbs I'm supposedly catching. You're also dirt under the shoes in my trailer park.
                                Make America Great Again

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