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  • #31
    Almond milk is part of my 20%..I use three splashes a day in coffee and the very occasional swig out of the carton to get that milk in my mouth feel. I am sensitive to dairy and apparently calories..

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    • #32
      Originally posted by Neckhammer View Post
      Yeah, almonds themselves (and many nuts) are a rich source of vitamin E so I'm not sure why the E in almond milk would need be synthetic. I don't know as I don't buy almond milk, but it doesn't make sense to me. As to PUFA its a not issue specifically because these sorts of foods are prepackaged with the necessary vitamins to make it so.
      PUFA is always an issue. Vitamin E is only needed in very small amounts when PUFA is kept to a minimum and iron is under control. Soaking nuts for hours just to reduce phytates so they aren't binding as much to several important minerals to get a PUFA bomb-inferior-food isn't worth it at all.
      Make America Great Again

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      • #33
        Originally posted by Derpamix View Post
        PUFA is always an issue.....
        No its not...but, rather than make a blanket statement without backing I'll even provide a bit of science

        The effect of increased intakes of polyunsaturated fatty acids and vitamin E on DNA damage in human lymphocytes

        Rather than listing them one by one though (as there are quite a few..) here Let me google that for you

        There is even a Peat Q&A in the list there for ya!

        If your eating Primal your PUFA will naturally be lower than SAD, but not taken to extremes as to be determined deadly in any sum. Heck that sounds as bad as someone saying ANY amount of glucose regardless of source is absolutely toxic to everyone doesn't it?
        Last edited by Neckhammer; 12-05-2012, 08:06 PM.

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        • #34
          Originally posted by Neckhammer View Post
          No its not...but, rather than make a blanket statement without backing I'll even provide a bit of science

          The effect of increased intakes of polyunsaturated fatty acids and vitamin E on DNA damage in human lymphocytes

          Rather than listing them one by one though (as there are quite a few..) here Let me google that for you

          There is even a Peat Q&A in the list there for ya!

          If your eating Primal your PUFA will naturally be lower than SAD, but not taken to extremes as to be determined deadly in any sum. Heck that sounds as bad as someone saying ANY amount of glucose regardless of source is absolutely toxic to everyone doesn't it?
          This study says essentially what I said in the post you quoted. What are you doing?

          These changes were abolished by an additional 80 mg dα-tocopherol/day. This study indicates that increasing dietary levels of PUFA to 15% may adversely affect some indices of DNA stability. However, increasing the dietary intake of vitamin E by 80 mg/day ameliorates the damaging effects of PUFA.
          When PUFA is limited, vitamin e requirements are lowered.

          Unsaturated fatty acids: Nutritionally essential, or toxic?

          You didn't think your post through very far, I guess.
          Make America Great Again

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          • #35
            Originally posted by Neckhammer View Post
            No its not...but, rather than make a blanket statement without backing I'll even provide a bit of science

            The effect of increased intakes of polyunsaturated fatty acids and vitamin E on DNA damage in human lymphocytes

            Rather than listing them one by one though (as there are quite a few..) here Let me google that for you

            There is even a Peat Q&A in the list there for ya!

            If your eating Primal your PUFA will naturally be lower than SAD, but not taken to extremes as to be determined deadly in any sum. Heck that sounds as bad as someone saying ANY amount of glucose regardless of source is absolutely toxic to everyone doesn't it?
            Well, I agree and disagree.

            Nuts are totally primal approved. But even with their high vitamin E levels I would not advocate eating handful after handful of them. That would still rack your omega-6 levels a bit high and not be a good thing.

            But on the other hand, saying that the occasional handful of nuts, a glass of nut milk, or a tablespoon or two of nut butter is ALWAYS going to cause issues is a bit alarmist. In moderate doses, you are probably ok.

            Also, I do agree that the typical primal eater should have lower omega-6 (well, PUFAs in general) levels over SAD, vegetarian, and even vegan eaters. This is why including a handful of nuts won't send you into a state of extreme oxidative stress.

            So, I do agree with the "chill out" message.
            "The cling and a clang is the metal in my head when I walk. I hear a sort of, this tinging noise - cling clang. The cling clang. So many things happen while walking. The metal in my head clangs and clings as I walk - freaks my balance out. So the natural thought is just clogged up. Totally clogged up. So we need to unplug these dams, and make the the natural flow... It sort of freaks me out. We need to unplug the dams. You cannot stop the natural flow of thought with a cling and a clang..."

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            • #36
              ... That's quite a discussion I lit a fire under. But thanks for all the information, every bit helps.
              Starting weight: 90kg (11/3/13) (33.1 BMI)
              Current weight: 89.5kg (12/3/13) (32.9 BMI)
              Goal weight: 75kg (27.5 BMI)
              Short term goal: BMI under 30
              Mid term goal:
              40 pushups, 100 situps, 10 pullups, 10.1 beep test, >10m 2.4km run
              Long term goal: Enlist as an ARA Combat Engineer

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              • #37
                Originally posted by Derpamix View Post
                This study says essentially what I said in the post you quoted. What are you doing?
                Meh, your first sentence is "PUFA is always an issue"....just highlighting the instances that they are not. As in when eaten in a natural food state that combines them with specific constituents shown to eliminate their potential harmful effect.

                I just don't see the sense in totally eliminating PUFA so I don't have to eat the vitamin E that comes with it anyhow. Just did not compute for me.

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                • #38
                  Originally posted by Drumroll View Post
                  Well, I agree and disagree.....

                  So, I do agree with the "chill out" message.
                  Tis all good.

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                  • #39
                    Originally posted by Neckhammer View Post
                    Meh, your first sentence is "PUFA is always an issue"....just highlighting the instances that they are not. As in when eaten in a natural food state that combines them with specific constituents shown to eliminate their potential harmful effect.

                    I just don't see the sense in totally eliminating PUFA so I don't have to eat the vitamin E that comes with it anyhow. Just did not compute for me.
                    Vitamin e only helps stop the chain of peroxidation, it does not displace every harmful effect of PUFA.
                    Last edited by Derpamix; 12-06-2012, 03:50 AM.
                    Make America Great Again

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                    • #40
                      I'd rather drink heavily processed almond milk than non organic, grain fed cows milk but if you can get good cows milk, then go for it.
                      http://lifemutt.blogspot.sg/ - Gaming, Food Reviews and Life in Singapore

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                      • #41
                        Originally posted by Derpamix View Post
                        Vitamin e only helps stop the chain of peroxidation, it does not displace every harmful effect of PUFA.
                        I read the Peat article and don't see a single instance of PUFA "harmful effect" from eating a whole food such as almonds as part of the diet. Please cite me something...anything that alludes to such damage. Preferably from this century and not in some genetically altered animal model, of course if thats all you got you can list it I suppose.

                        I'm not saying that you should make PUFA your primary fat source. I agree that it should be saturated/monosaturated then PUFA. But, I have read some Peat people attempting to eat as close to 0 PUFA as they can and eliminating healthy foods to do so in some biochemically warped view that it will make them superhuman.

                        So back to the original proposition. Find me any paper that quantifies PUFA damage from a whole food such as almonds. I'm really curious now. Oh, one other stipulation...no data on some frankenoils that are not Primal anyhow.
                        Last edited by Neckhammer; 12-06-2012, 08:34 AM.

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                        • #42
                          Originally posted by Drumroll View Post

                          Also, I do agree that the typical primal eater should have lower omega-6 (well, PUFAs in general) levels over SAD, vegetarian, and even vegan eaters. This is why including a handful of nuts won't send you into a state of extreme oxidative stress.

                          So, I do agree with the "chill out" message.
                          Im not going to speak for others but my pufa level was probably 5 times what it was when i just ate how i wanted. Lots of nuts, avacados, nut butters, fatty meats (bacon!), 5--0g of fish oils, 5 eggs a day, etc. that adds up to a hell of a lot of pufa and the main reason why i felt ao horrible on a paleo diet. People forget that AA is highly inflammitory as well so pufa is even more harmful.

                          I think some people tend to envision SAD as all fast food and deep fried twinkies but i have pictures of just eating normal and of when i was heavy in paleo/primal and i look (and felt) so much better on my SAD diet. (Bread, dairy, fruit, little meat, beans, sugar).

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                          • #43
                            Originally posted by Zach View Post
                            Im not going to speak for others but my pufa level was probably 5 times what it was when i just ate how i wanted. Lots of nuts, avacados, nut butters, fatty meats (bacon!), 5--0g of fish oils, 5 eggs a day, etc. that adds up to a hell of a lot of pufa and the main reason why i felt ao horrible on a paleo diet. People forget that AA is highly inflammitory as well so pufa is even more harmful.
                            No, no, no....thats the point. In the context of real whole foods these come with the constituents that negate any harmful effect and to the contrary leads to a very anti-inflammatory diet. The paleo diet reduces O6 by eliminating the seed oils and other industrial crap that you cook in and is added to almost every pre-packaged food on your grocery shelf. These foods contain rancid oxidized O6. Quite different from an avacado which has various factors that reduce oxidation of its PUFA and provides the body with vitamins that aid in processing without inflammatory effect. In the context of the paleo diet...assuming your eating the "good stuff (grass fed/patrured)" along with eggs and some seafood your PUFA levels come out much more balanced and anti-inflammatory.

                            When you eat right (paleo)...then your going to get most your fat from saturated and monosaturated forms and the least from PUFA, but the ratio and total amount of PUFA and the source allows for better utilization and lower inflammation.

                            In your case you need not of added fish oils and you probably could get rid of or at least make sure of proper storage of your nut butters. That all comes along with knowing how to buy quality product and safe storage for consumption. I don't know how much of your diet those made up. Stick to fatty meat, real fish, avacados, and pastured eggs and the like. Heck bacon has many of the same fatty acid makeup that everyone just LOVES olive oil for.

                            But please, eat what you like. Heck your definitely in the majority if your eating all that stuff you list (bread, sugar, beans....). We are but a small percent of America eating this way.
                            Last edited by Neckhammer; 12-06-2012, 09:02 AM.

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                            • #44
                              Originally posted by Neckhammer View Post
                              No, no, no....thats the point. In the context of real whole foods these come with the constituents that negate any harmful effect and to the contrary leads to a very anti-inflammatory diet. The paleo diet reduces O6 by eliminating the seed oils and other industrial crap that you cook in and is added to almost every pre-packaged food on your grocery shelf. These foods contain rancid oxidized O6. Quite different from an avacado which has various factors that reduce oxidation of its PUFA and provides the body with vitamins that aid in processing without inflammatory effect. In the context of the paleo diet...assuming your eating the "good stuff (grass fed/patrured)" along with eggs and some seafood your PUFA levels come out much more balanced and anti-inflammatory.

                              When you eat right (paleo)...then your going to get most your fat from saturated and monosaturated forms and the least from PUFA, but the ratio and total amount of PUFA and the source allows for better utilization and lower inflammation.

                              In your case you need not of added fish oils and you probably could get rid of or at least make sure of proper storage of your nut butters. That all comes along with knowing how to buy quality product and safe storage for consumption. I don't know how much of your diet those made up. Stick to fatty meat, real fish, avacados, and pastured eggs and the like. Heck bacon has many of the same fatty acid makeup that everyone just LOVES olive oil for.

                              But please, eat what you like. Heck your definitely in the majority if your eating all that stuff you list (bread, sugar, beans....). We are but a small percent of America eating this way.

                              Im not going to argue about mechanisms for oxidation and inflammation. All im saying that after tril and error i can pinpoint my severe (as in barely walk some days and never being able to run) to excess meat and pufa consumption.

                              And yes, all my food was organic, grassfed, free range. I was eating exactly how Robb Wolf and Cordain recommend at the time.

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                              • #45
                                Originally posted by Zach View Post
                                Im not going to argue about mechanisms for oxidation and inflammation. All im saying that after tril and error i can pinpoint my severe (as in barely walk some days and never being able to run) to excess meat and pufa consumption.

                                And yes, all my food was organic, grassfed, free range. I was eating exactly how Robb Wolf and Cordain recommend at the time.
                                Sorry to hear that. I'm not going to second guess your efforts. Good luck.

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