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  • #61
    Originally posted by Paleobird View Post
    Was that guest of Jimmy's someone who sells protein powders for a living perchance? (honest question.)
    I agree with Neckhammer. Just eat some real food. I don't see anything wrong with powders if you honestly don't have time to eat and Neckhammer's suggestion of mixing with coconut milk is a good one. Still not really Primal though.
    Dr Donald Layman - don't think he is selling anything which is pretty unusual. I do believe many of the nutrition experts out there today are whack-a-doodles, including some interviewed by Moore. In this case, I found many other sources saying pretty much the same thing. My protein sources are decent: pastured eggs, Wild Planet sardines & skipjack tuna, local grass fed beef, US Wellness liverwurst, Wild Idea grass fed bison, Kerrygold cheese and organic chicken. However, it is hard for me to consume 3 grams per meal of leucine - I just do not desire that much food. I was thinking about whey only as a way to fortify what I already eat. Here is the Jimmy Moore podcast:

    24: All Things Protein (Protein 101) | Dr. Donald Layman | Jimmy Moore Presents: Ask The Low-Carb Experts

    Here is Layman's bio:

    http://fshn.illinois.edu/directory/donald-layman

    Update: a company called Qivana is selling weight-loss shakes based on Layman's research. It is called Metaboliq. Layman doesn't appear to own the company but his name is all over the marketing so I assume he gets a royalty on sales. I did not listen to the entire podcast but Layman said nothing about Metaboliq during the part I heard. In fact, Moore asked him about whey shakes. Layman was rather neutral saying he didn't think they were necessarily bad and he usually had a whey shake each morning, but he didn't mention any particlar brand.
    Last edited by Artbuc; 12-02-2012, 11:53 AM.

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    • #62
      Artbuc,

      Use whey if you want. Nothing wrong with fortifying your meals with it.

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      • #63
        Finally this discussion is intelligent.
        Female, age 51, 5' 9"
        SW - 183 (Jan 22, 2012), CW - 159, GW - healthy.

        Met my 2012 goals by losing 24 pounds.
        2013 goals are to get fit and strong!

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        • #64
          I think most of us are already getting excess leucine, anyway, by those guidelines. Why supplement what's already there?
          Crohn's, doing SCD

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          • #65
            Originally posted by Knifegill View Post
            I think most of us are already getting excess leucine, anyway, by those guidelines. Why supplement what's already there?
            Excess... ?

            Those guidelines say about 3 grams leucine per meal... which would be from say 40 grams of chicken protein... which is about 7.5 oz of chicken breast with rib on (I always prefer bone on meats).
            I could totally eat that for dinner... possibly even a slightly larger chicken breast on a really hungry day since I tend to IF naturally.

            But certainly I don't eat that much multiple times a day...
            And I think if one can't or doesn't wish to hit that volume of food a bit of supplement isn't a bad thing at all.
            “You have your way. I have my way. As for the right way, the correct way, and the only way, it does not exist.”
            ~Friedrich Nietzsche
            And that's why I'm here eating HFLC Primal/Paleo.

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            • #66
              Originally posted by ez2cy View Post
              Horses do NOT have multi stomachs. Cows do! Horse's have a single stomach.
              Yes, sorry, brain fart. They have, technically, one stomach. However, their digestion, with their more developed hind gut, is very different from ours, like a cow in the sense it is a big fermentation vat allowing them to digest cellulose fibers we cannot digest. Also allowing things to go deadly haywire with rapid dietary changes or too much sugar/starch in the diet, just like a cow/goat/sheep etc. Pigs don't really digest cellulose, they have faster digestion and can eat richer food because they don't ferment like ruminants and horses do.

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              • #67
                Excess... ?

                Those guidelines say about 3 grams leucine per meal... which would be from say 40 grams of chicken protein... which is about 7.5 oz of chicken breast with rib on (I always prefer bone on meats).
                I could totally eat that for dinner... possibly even a slightly larger chicken breast on a really hungry day since I tend to IF naturally.

                But certainly I don't eat that much multiple times a day...
                And I think if one can't or doesn't wish to hit that volume of food a bit of supplement isn't a bad thing at all.
                No, not multiple times a day. Who's in such a hurry to add muscle?! Even once a day is more than enough to be laying down more muscle faster than usual. Muscle just flies on like the plague, anyway. Why help it along? Soon you'll look like a worthless pit bull or a bag of tumors. Where is the health? The human heart cannot sustain that kind of muscle mass any more than it can a human ball of fat. It's hard enough already to avoid muscles. Sometimes I go weeks without a work-out to keep it in check.

                But for those people who really want to look like a bag of tumors, three meals a day seems reasonable. You need to eat that much to grow anyway. Might as well spread it out. 7.5 ounces of meat is not much at all. Even three times that (for three meals a day) doesn't even hit two pounds. For people who want to look like pit bulls, three pounds of meat per day is a good start. Can't be afraid of food if you want to be strong. It's the bigness that is the problem!
                Last edited by Knifegill; 12-03-2012, 10:28 AM.
                Crohn's, doing SCD

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                • #68
                  Originally posted by Knifegill View Post
                  No, not multiple times a day. Who's in such a hurry to add muscle?! Even once a day is more than enough to be laying down more muscle faster than usual. Muscle just flies on like the plague, anyway. Why help it along? Soon you'll look like a worthless pit bull or a bag of tumors. Where is the health? The human heart cannot sustain that kind of muscle mass any more than it can a human ball of fat. It's hard enough already to avoid muscles. Sometimes I go weeks without a work-out to keep it in check.

                  But for those people who really want to look like a bag of tumors, three meals a day seems reasonable. You need to eat that much to grow anyway. Might as well spread it out.
                  Ok... hehe... Agreed!!!

                  He was saying "per meal" and I kept thinking "3 meals per day?" and the thought of all that food was overwhelming.
                  And I suppose dudes who really what to stack can put away a lot more food volume/kcal that I can! It shouldn't be a problem.
                  “You have your way. I have my way. As for the right way, the correct way, and the only way, it does not exist.”
                  ~Friedrich Nietzsche
                  And that's why I'm here eating HFLC Primal/Paleo.

                  Comment


                  • #69
                    Originally posted by cori93437 View Post
                    Ok... hehe... Agreed!!!

                    He was saying "per meal" and I kept thinking "3 meals per day?" and the thought of all that food was overwhelming.
                    And I suppose dudes who really what to stack can put away a lot more food volume/kcal that I can! It shouldn't be a problem.
                    Ok, now I am confused. Are you saying 9 grams of leucine per day distributed evenly among 3 meals is excessive? Do you believe 30 grams per meal of protein is excessive? I am an old guy, 63, and I am concerned about muscle atrophy. From what I understand I probably need more protein than younger folks to help offset the normal aging process. Layman is saying that anything less than 30 grams of protein per meal will not trigger muscle protein synthesis. Less than that and the only benefit you get from the protein is the calories. I am not saying this is correct because I do not know. Just relaying Layman's theory. I did not hear the leucine requirement from Layman but it is mentioned in a number of studies. You need a lot more than 30 grams of protein to get 3 grams of leucine unless you are consuming whey concentrate.

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                    • #70
                      As I posted the 3grams of leucine you are wanting should be attainable from 7.5 oz of bone on chicken breast (as an example, you are losing some weight as bone you don't eat)
                      Or 5.5oz of beef skirt steak (another example).

                      Yeah, to me 5 eggs is a lot... I cannot eat that many and I wouldn't choose that as a way to get in leucine if I was concerned. But the meats where it is more concentrated don't seem to be a volume problem to me and I'm a pretty light eater.

                      Those are not exactly staggering amounts of food if you are exercising to create muscle growth and eating regular meals.

                      Adding leucine to your diet by itself but not lifting/exercising to grow muscle won't help prevent atrophy.
                      But if you really want to supplement leucine by using whey you can certainly go ahead and do it if you think you need it and it will really help... there are also lots of guys your age not supplementing and building muscle.
                      We all make our own choices.
                      Last edited by cori93437; 12-03-2012, 12:36 PM.
                      “You have your way. I have my way. As for the right way, the correct way, and the only way, it does not exist.”
                      ~Friedrich Nietzsche
                      And that's why I'm here eating HFLC Primal/Paleo.

                      Comment


                      • #71
                        Until ten years from now when you see the headline, "Leucine supplementation blocks enzyme production leading to metabolic disorders" or something like that. We're already getting leucine. Go do 100 push-ups and eat a friendly pound of bacon with some oysters, eggs or avocado on the side. Done.
                        Crohn's, doing SCD

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                        • #72
                          I highly doubt that you need 30g of protein in a sitting to be able to spare or build muscle. As for you, if anything you probably need less protein then a young person who is still growing or building mass. What you do need is to make sure you are getting plenty of calories and nutrients. There are studies showing that if calories for fuel is high then actual protein requirement is pretty low, something like 50g.

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                          • #73
                            Originally posted by Knifegill View Post
                            Until ten years from now when you see the headline, "Leucine supplementation blocks enzyme production leading to metabolic disorders" or something like that. We're already getting leucine. Go do 100 push-ups and eat a friendly pound of bacon with some oysters, eggs or avocado on the side. Done.
                            I can only do 55 push-ups and I am sick of avocados after eating one per day for the last 4 months!

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                            • #74
                              Originally posted by Artbuc View Post
                              I can only do 55 push-ups and I am sick of avocados after eating one per day for the last 4 months!
                              Here's the thing Art... you are asking for permission to use a whey supplement.
                              Lots of people use them and are just fine I suppose.
                              But here in this forum there is obviously a wide variety of opinions about how much protein is necessary per day... and therefor leucine (which you're read that this one fella suggests "x" amount of)... and we tend, on the whole, to favor natural foods over processed methods of attaining the goodies we need.

                              Ultimately YOU have to decide if you really need/want to use the whey supplement, if one guy's/Dr's (receiving royalties evidently?) recommendation is worth the hassle, and if you think that it will be of a sufficient benefit to bother with rather than just eating food.
                              “You have your way. I have my way. As for the right way, the correct way, and the only way, it does not exist.”
                              ~Friedrich Nietzsche
                              And that's why I'm here eating HFLC Primal/Paleo.

                              Comment


                              • #75
                                Originally posted by cori93437 View Post
                                Here's the thing Art... you are asking for permission to use a whey supplement.
                                Lots of people use them and are just fine I suppose.
                                But here in this forum there is obviously a wide variety of opinions about how much protein is necessary per day... and therefor leucine (which you're read that this one fella suggests "x" amount of)... and we tend, on the whole, to favor natural foods over processed methods of attaining the goodies we need.

                                Ultimately YOU have to decide if you really need/want to use the whey supplement, if one guy's/Dr's (receiving royalties evidently?) recommendation is worth the hassle, and if you think that it will be of a sufficient benefit to bother with rather than just eating food.
                                Cori, I very much appreciate your responses. I do want to make a couple points and I'll let this go. I am not asking for permission to consume a whey supplement; I am seeking experience and kniowledge. As I mentioned earlier, this "one guy" is not the source of the leucine recommendation. That came from several other sources and studies. Layman was the one who recommended 30 g protein per meal. While you could make a stretch and say he has a financial incentive to push protein, it is a quite a stretch compared to all of the other folks who are highly regarded here and on other paleo/primal forums. Even most, if not all, studies have to be viewed with a grain of salt once you discover who funded it. As I posted earlier, I am very fortunate to have access to pastured eggs, grain fed beef and bison, etc so that I eat high quality food at every meal. Having said that, I do get tired of eggs, beef, chicken, sardines, tuna and liverwurst so the idea of a whey shake once in a while is appealing. I especially like shredded coconut and cacao nibs with half&half as a dessert. I had an idea I could add whey supplement and create a complete meal. I did purchase some VitalWhey which is 100% organic and comes from pastured cow milk. I would say it is a pretty natural food product. I don't see the difference between separating whey from curds and separating beef liver from beef muscle. I look at this an experiment as I continue to refine my diet with an overarching goal of eating complete nutritious meals without spiking my blood glucose above 140.
                                Last edited by Artbuc; 12-03-2012, 02:18 PM.

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