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  • #31
    Originally posted by j3nn View Post
    Aren't MCTs famous for being used immediately?
    That's kind of what I'm asking. I've heard they are used immediately, but also hear they must go through a cycle in the liver to get converted into a form the body can use.

    So, let's say we drink a cup of melted coconut oil or melted butter. It hits the stomach and probably pretty quickly gets in the small intestine where it begins to be absorbed into the bloodstream. Are these fat molecules able to be incorporated in the cells for use in ATP production? Or do they require a trip through the liver to get converted, then stored in fat tissue.

    Some places I've read say the only fat that can be used for ATP or energy production at the cellular level is lipids, or free fatty acids, which are release from our adipose tissue.

    Other places act like fat you eat gets used directly for energy and if there's a surplus it gets stored in adipose tissue.

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    • #32
      Originally posted by otzi View Post
      This is actually a serious question, no angles. Do you really think fat can be 'burned directly'? If so, it does make sense why the polar explorers would want to eat a stick of butter.
      serious answer - yes. polar explorers thing - what's not burned is stored; only so much can hang out in blood stream (albeit more than glucose). what's the mystery you're trying to unravel?

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      • #33
        My understanding is that fat is shuttled to fat cells FIRST. The FFAs in the blood are released from storage. So I don't think that fat is burned directly, without being stored first.

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        • #34
          Originally posted by jakey View Post
          serious answer - yes. polar explorers thing - what's not burned is stored; only so much can hang out in blood stream (albeit more than glucose). what's the mystery you're trying to unravel?
          Just trying to separate fact from bro-science. I had always believed that all dietary fat was stored or converted to something else, then burned. I have recently been hearing that dietary fat is burned directly by cells. If it is burned directly, it makes eating lard a reasonable thing to do if you need instant energy, like a polar explorer or free diver in cold water, but if it's all converted first, it doesn't make much sense. Seems like just loading up on any food would be enough.


          edit to add: Just got this from wikipedia:
          "Fats also serve as energy stores for the body, containing about 37.8 kilojoules (9 calories) per gram of fat.[3] They are broken down in the body to release glycerol and free fatty acids. The glycerol can be converted to glucose by the liver and thus used as a source of energy."

          So, if dietary fat has to be converted to glycerol, how is it burned directly?
          Last edited by otzi; 11-30-2012, 04:06 PM.

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          • #35
            Originally posted by otzi View Post
            Just trying to separate fact from bro-science. I had always believed that all dietary fat was stored or converted to something else, then burned. I have recently been hearing that dietary fat is burned directly by cells. If it is burned directly, it makes eating lard a reasonable thing to do if you need instant energy, like a polar explorer or free diver in cold water, but if it's all converted first, it doesn't make much sense. Seems like just loading up on any food would be enough.


            edit to add: Just got this from wikipedia:
            "Fats also serve as energy stores for the body, containing about 37.8 kilojoules (9 calories) per gram of fat.[3] They are broken down in the body to release glycerol and free fatty acids. The glycerol can be converted to glucose by the liver and thus used as a source of energy."

            So, if dietary fat has to be converted to glycerol, how is it burned directly?
            wait sorry, some of this is just how we're defining terms like "storage," and now i see what you're getting at. most things have to be converted at some point, in your body (even glucose). whether the site of conversion is the small intestine (short chain fatty acids), the liver (medium chain), or the adipocyte (triglycerides back into fatty acids), i still don't consider that to mean 'storage.' even with elevated insulin, your adipocyte is constantly releasing FFAs and your liver is constantly repackaging them as triglycerides. sort of like amino acids, in muscles, it doesn't really stop.

            also dietary fat does not need to be converted to glycerol, your mitochondria love FFA.

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            • #36
              good discusion! been wondering the same

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              • #37
                i just finished up one month of using coconut oil and coconut butter as my fat source. Was not the best source of fat for Me.
                my jeans are tight now and this was the only thing i changed - what fat i used. For some people it helps them with energy, i should have stopped using it when i noticed it did not do that for me. It sure does taste amazing though!

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                • #38
                  Originally posted by emmie View Post
                  Fat doesn't get stored but burned as energy? Nonsense. If you overeat, anything extra will be stored as fat.

                  And why should olive oil be any different from any other oil in terms of fat storage?

                  I am very skeptical about all these claims for coconut oil because all it did for me was raise my LDL 50 points in 4 months. Stopped it, and my LDL went down those same 50 points. My cardiologist tells me that it doesn't matter whether it was Pattern A or not, elevated LDL is always a cause for concern.

                  I've watched the enthusiasm for CO take off across the Internet, but I remain healthy without using it.
                  The difference between olive oil and coconut oil is that olive oil is a long chain fatty acid and coconut oil is a medium chain fatty acid which can be burned more quickly.

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                  • #39
                    Originally posted by otzi View Post
                    Just trying to separate fact from bro-science. I had always believed that all dietary fat was stored or converted to something else, then burned. I have recently been hearing that dietary fat is burned directly by cells. If it is burned directly, it makes eating lard a reasonable thing to do if you need instant energy, like a polar explorer or free diver in cold water, but if it's all converted first, it doesn't make much sense. Seems like just loading up on any food would be enough.


                    edit to add: Just got this from wikipedia:
                    "Fats also serve as energy stores for the body, containing about 37.8 kilojoules (9 calories) per gram of fat.[3] They are broken down in the body to release glycerol and free fatty acids. The glycerol can be converted to glucose by the liver and thus used as a source of energy."

                    So, if dietary fat has to be converted to glycerol, how is it burned directly?
                    It depends on how "instant" you need the energy though. So even if high fat foods such as pemmican is an excellent source for energy in a cold climate, and to be preferred on a polar expedition, why does not marathon skiers and others use it when competing in cold climates then? Because fat is “low octane”, it doesn’t burn fast enough and it also takes longer time to digest and get into the system than a lukewarm sugar drink when doing high intensity work...
                    "All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident."

                    - Schopenhauer

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Originally posted by Gorbag View Post
                      Because fat is “low octane”, it doesn’t burn fast enough and it also takes longer time to digest and get into the system than a lukewarm sugar drink when doing high intensity work...
                      That's kind of the conclusion I came up with as well. I guess to illustrate my point that you don't 'burn ingested fat directly' you'd have to color-code or irradiate a stick of butter and follow that through your body with an MRI or PET scan. My thought is that if you eat pure fat (CO, Ghee, lard, Crisco, etc...) none of it gets picked up by any mitochondria for energy purposes, but rather gets processed by various means and stored in adipose tissue for later release as free fatty acids that the mitochondria can use.

                      So, eating a stick of butter (for instance) provides a source of fat calories to keep your adipose tissues filled, but the butter will not be burned preferentially over free fatty acids because the CAN'T be burned directly.

                      So probably the only people who would need to eat a stick of butter or hunks of lard are people who are undergoing extreme physical exertion such as those on a polar expedition, mountain climbers, distance swimmers in cold water...

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                      • #41
                        Originally posted by otzi View Post
                        That's kind of the conclusion I came up with as well. I guess to illustrate my point that you don't 'burn ingested fat directly' you'd have to color-code or irradiate a stick of butter and follow that through your body with an MRI or PET scan. My thought is that if you eat pure fat (CO, Ghee, lard, Crisco, etc...) none of it gets picked up by any mitochondria for energy purposes, but rather gets processed by various means and stored in adipose tissue for later release as free fatty acids that the mitochondria can use.

                        So, eating a stick of butter (for instance) provides a source of fat calories to keep your adipose tissues filled, but the butter will not be burned preferentially over free fatty acids because the CAN'T be burned directly.

                        So probably the only people who would need to eat a stick of butter or hunks of lard are people who are undergoing extreme physical exertion such as those on a polar expedition, mountain climbers, distance swimmers in cold water...
                        Or people who don't do well on high carbohydrate diets, but function better on high fat keto diets or somewhere near that, for medical reasons... tight blood sugar control, neurological reasons, etc.

                        Not eating whole sticks of butter or chunks of lard alone of course. Kinda ick.

                        Also, on MCT's...
                        "When MCT's are absorbed into the blood stream, they bypass the digestion process that longer chain fats go through. MCT's provide quick energy for the body and are thus less likely to be stored in the fat cells... MCT has a smaller molecular structure and is more soluble in water. Therefore, it is easier for your body to absorb and does not require this complicated digestive process. Whereas conventional fats are prone to being stored as body fat, MCT is transported directly from the small intestine to the liver. In the liver, some of the MCTs are turned into ketone bodies, which the muscles can use for energy. Some MCT's are used for thermogenesis, and a portion is converted to ATP, the energy currency of the cell. MCT, therefore is processed in the liver, so there is little left to be stored as fat."

                        I know that the much higher rate of MCT's conversion to ketones is believes to be the reason for its success in treating the onset of Alzheimer's in some cases.

                        Of course anything consumed in excess calorically will be stored as fat. Calories still matter.
                        Last edited by cori93437; 12-01-2012, 11:06 AM.
                        “You have your way. I have my way. As for the right way, the correct way, and the only way, it does not exist.”
                        ~Friedrich Nietzsche
                        And that's why I'm here eating HFLC Primal/Paleo.

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Originally posted by otzi View Post
                          So probably the only people who would need to eat a stick of butter or hunks of lard are people who are undergoing extreme physical exertion such as those on a polar expedition, mountain climbers, distance swimmers in cold water...
                          People that need a steady flow of energy, to heat the body and not too high intensity performance demands probably. Personally I have tried to go to the gym after ingesting a hot fatty chocolate drink, with added butter, but it does not give me good performance energy and the fat also slow down the absorption of sugar from the chocolate. It is probably not optimal directly after hard exercise either, when you really need to shuttle energy fast into the body cells, but the experts are somehow disagreeing upon that point…
                          "All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident."

                          - Schopenhauer

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            Originally posted by Gorbag View Post
                            People that need a steady flow of energy, to heat the body and not too high intensity performance demands probably. Personally I have tried to go to the gym after ingesting a hot fatty chocolate drink, with added butter, but it does not give me good performance energy and the fat also slow down the absorption of sugar from the chocolate. It is probably not optimal directly after hard exercise either, when you really need to shuttle energy fast into the body cells, but the experts are somehow disagreeing upon that point…
                            I have just been reading a lot lately it seems where people make the statement "dietary fat gets burned directly by the body" . There is a guy getting ready to pull a sled 500 miles across Antarctica and said he will be eating sticks of butter for energy and also a guy who was swimming in polar waters last year talking about eating butter and drinking some kind of oil for energy.

                            If that were the case, it seems anyone on a high-fat diet would have high triglycerides, but that is obviously not the case.

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                            • #44
                              Originally posted by otzi View Post
                              I have just been reading a lot lately it seems where people make the statement "dietary fat gets burned directly by the body" . There is a guy getting ready to pull a sled 500 miles across Antarctica and said he will be eating sticks of butter for energy and also a guy who was swimming in polar waters last year talking about eating butter and drinking some kind of oil for energy.

                              If that were the case, it seems anyone on a high-fat diet would have high triglycerides, but that is obviously not the case.
                              If he was drinking oil I would bet money he was drinking pure MCT oil.

                              The exercise feats you are discussing are the opposite of high intensity though... long slow climbs, the long slow pulling of a sled 500 miles, distance swimming in frigid waters...
                              Those people need a completely different kind of energy. Eating fat has a huge caloric payoff for the cold environment where their body is going to need to have to work even harder than normal to keep warm, and it will keep them going at a slow pace steadily indefinitely.
                              No giant bursts of speed maybe, but when you are talking pulling a sled 500 miles it's not about sprints.
                              “You have your way. I have my way. As for the right way, the correct way, and the only way, it does not exist.”
                              ~Friedrich Nietzsche
                              And that's why I'm here eating HFLC Primal/Paleo.

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                Originally posted by otzi View Post
                                I have just been reading a lot lately it seems where people make the statement "dietary fat gets burned directly by the body" . There is a guy getting ready to pull a sled 500 miles across Antarctica and said he will be eating sticks of butter for energy and also a guy who was swimming in polar waters last year talking about eating butter and drinking some kind of oil for energy.

                                If that were the case, it seems anyone on a high-fat diet would have high triglycerides, but that is obviously not the case.
                                Maybe because sticks of butter is convenient to get a lot of calories? Fat provides a steady flow of energy and it is very energy dense, so it make sense to take it in lower intensity work like pulling a sled for ten hours per day or long distance swimming. Personally I would also have loaded up on fatty chocolate, pemmican and dried fruit etc.

                                Generally I think that that persons involved in high intensity work will do better on more simple carbohydrates for performance energy. Especially competing athletes with less body fat. Also, when people are getting leaner the body cannot provide sufficient fat for energy fast enough when doing high intensity anaerobic work…
                                "All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident."

                                - Schopenhauer

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