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Potato diet - Epic Fail, Glorious Victory

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  • #76
    Man, look at the forum lately. Who knew the humble potato could be such a source of contention?

    Besides the Irish, I mean.

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    • #77
      Originally posted by ChocoTaco369 View Post
      For those trying this "experiment," did anyone read this post at Hyperlipid that got this whole ball rolling to begin with?

      Hyperlipid: Protons: Zero fat

      The theory why people are calling this a "diet hack" isn't because of calories. That would just be normal dieting. The reason why potatoes are the chosen food is because they're basically zero fat and come with high quality protein, something very rare in a vegetarian protein source, and a lot of nutrients. The theory is because your body needs fat to manufacture insulin, if you are eating ZERO fat, it has to pull fat out of storage to manufacture insulin. Because white potatoes are so highly insulogenic and create such a massive, high GI response, it needs A LOT of insulin - which requires a significant portion of fat. Since you aren't eating fat along with it, it is forced to go to adipose tissue as a source - and needs quite a bit - to make all that insulin.

      So when you start combining potatoes with outside sources of protein and fiber - like egg whites, fish or vegetables - you are destroying the "hack." You are greatly reducing the insulin spike you're supposed to get, which lessens the immediate fat need from your fat cells to manufacture insulin. The whole point is because potatoes are so massively insulinogenic. If you add stuff, it doesn't work. It has to be all potatoes.

      You could surely do it with white rice too, but it's not recommended because there's virtually no protein (certainly no high quality protein) and far less nutrients. Potatoes were chosen because of the very high quality protein, the nutrient density, the high glycemix index and the fact that someone can survive a very long time eating simply potatoes - it is nearly a complete food - you will become ill much faster eating just white rice than eating just white potatoes.

      This thread addresses none of this, which is why it's completely invalid. Ignoring this means you've turned it from a "diet hack" into typical CICO, or in this case due to the very short term application, just an exercise in water retention.
      Did you actually read the hyperlipid post and understand it? Because from what I've quoted above, it is clear that your understanding of the mechanisms is superficial, and as a result you cannot see how what I did mirrors the "all potato hack" in the salient details.

      First, the operative mechanism proposed by Peter at Hyperlipid was completely unrelated to protein or fiber. No impact whatsoever. Hopefully, you'll go back to the post and try to find some oblique reference to how the mechanism was related to low protein intake and call me on my misunderstanding, but I'm betting you won't because you can't because it's not in there.

      Peter speculates that the operative mechanism for the potato hack was related to the effect of lipids in the mitochondria of the beta cells responsible for producing insulin. Specifically, Peter's speculation was that in the absence of the palmitic free fatty acid, even in the face of hyperglycemia, your pancreas behaves essentially like that of a type 1 diabetic, incapable of secreting insulin. This then leads to low circulating insulin, which permits lipolysis to increase, thereby increasing palmitic acid release from the fat cells, which then allows the pancreas to secrete some additional insulin, which takes care of the hyperglycemia, but inhibits palmitic acid release from the fat cells, and round about you go again.

      So, the reader's digest explanation : don't eat Palmitic acid.

      Chris Voight on his diet had about 20 ml of olive oil a day, which is predominantly composed of oleic acid. Predominantly, but not entirely. So, one might ask how much palmitic acid was he getting from this? Well, according to the USDA, this would net him an intake of 2.25 g of palmitic acid. If you follow the link, it's the value in the lipid section shown as 16:0, the saturated 16 carbon fat. Choco, maybe you should let him know that he wasn't properly doing the "hack" because of his olive oil consumption?

      A fair question at this point might be how much albacore tuna would one have to consume to provide the same amount of palmitic acid as Chris Voight was ingesting? The fine folks at the USDA tell us it would be about 400g. And with that, mon cher Choco, your argument falls apart because I was eating about half that amount, approximately 230g worth per meal.

      This then leaves you with two options:
      1. You can admit that my diet falls entirely within the confines of the operative mechanism suggested by Peter at Hyperlipid.
      2. Stick your head in the sand and ignore this, and come back with a proof by repeated assertion approach where you insists that it has to be all potatoes, just because.


      What's it gonna be?

      -PK
      My blog : cogitoergoedo.com

      Interested in Intermittent Fasting? This might help: part 1, part 2, part 3.

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      • #78

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        • #79
          Originally posted by InSearchOfAbs View Post
          Is that a bowl of mashed potatoes???
          Find me on Facebook!

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          • #80
            yes, mixed with some egg whites and 200g of tuna...

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            • #81
              Originally posted by Daydreamer View Post
              Oh and Leida, be careful with the 18 squares of chocolate, you could have theobromine toxicity. I'm very sensitive to caffeine and I know that if I eat too much chocolate I get dizzy.
              The lethal dose is something on the order of 71 kg of dark chocolate in a sitting. So she's probably pretty safe
              Disclaimer: I eat 'meat and vegetables' ala Primal, although I don't agree with the carb curve. I like Perfect Health Diet and WAPF Lactofermentation a lot.

              Griff's cholesterol primer
              5,000 Cal Fat <> 5,000 Cal Carbs
              Winterbike: What I eat every day is what other people eat to treat themselves.
              TQP: I find for me that nutrition is much more important than what I do in the gym.
              bloodorchid is always right

              Comment


              • #82
                pklopp: Thank you for the exhaustive self-documentation.

                Don't worry about the haters: these arguments are always circular. If the fashionable-hack-of-the-month doesn't work for you, it's because you did it wrong -- and if it does work, it's because you did it right!

                Richard Nikoley added butter, onions, beef liver, and BCAAs (extra protein) to his potato regimen. Clearly he did it wrong! But since it worked for him (at least in the short term...the jury's still out on long-term effectiveness), the advocates give him a pass. Whereas when it doesn't work for pklopp, it must have been because he added tuna and egg whites instead of butter, onions, beef liver, and BCAAs.

                Riiiiight.

                pklopp isn't the first person to report that the potato hack doesn't work for them. If you don't want to hear that, go ahead and register 30potatoesaday.com.

                Comment


                • #83
                  lol...

                  sigh...

                  the point of it was, he set out to debunk otzi's potato feast

                  to do so, he did not do the plan as planned

                  therein lies the point of contention
                  beautiful
                  yeah you are

                  Baby if you time travel back far enough you can avoid that work because the dust won't be there. You're too pretty to be working that hard.
                  lol

                  Comment


                  • #84
                    Originally posted by J. Stanton View Post
                    pklopp: Thank you for the exhaustive self-documentation.

                    Don't worry about the haters: these arguments are always circular. If the fashionable-hack-of-the-month doesn't work for you, it's because you did it wrong -- and if it does work, it's because you did it right!

                    Richard Nikoley added butter, onions, beef liver, and BCAAs (extra protein) to his potato regimen. Clearly he did it wrong! But since it worked for him (at least in the short term...the jury's still out on long-term effectiveness), the advocates give him a pass. Whereas when it doesn't work for pklopp, it must have been because he added tuna and egg whites instead of butter, onions, beef liver, and BCAAs.

                    Riiiiight.

                    pklopp isn't the first person to report that the potato hack doesn't work for them. If you don't want to hear that, go ahead and register 30potatoesaday.com.
                    Wow,

                    Thanks for the words of encouragement. I loved your book and your site is great. I'm especially fond of your "Caution Contains Science" disclaimer on your articles!

                    -PK
                    My blog : cogitoergoedo.com

                    Interested in Intermittent Fasting? This might help: part 1, part 2, part 3.

                    Comment


                    • #85
                      I agree that pklopp didn't do it like otzi...but neither did Richard, and no one's telling Richard he did it wrong.

                      No, I'm not arguing that it's a dumb idea that doesn't work! Clearly it works very well for some people, at least in the short term (the jury's still out on long-term effects) -- just as VLC/keto works very well for some people.

                      However, I am not personally invested in its success or its failure. Based on what I've seen so far, I am still skeptical of the following claims:
                      • None of the weight lost is lean mass
                      • Eating anything but potatoes, including lean protein, disqualifies you (already disproven by Richard)
                      • The weight will always stay off in the long term (>1 year)


                      Again, it's funny to watch these fashions swing back and forth. "OMG weight loss on keto" "OMG weight loss on potatoes" Human metabolism is complex, we don't fully understand it, and there are a bewildering variety of sound biochemical reasons for why you might carry more fat mass than you'd like.

                      pklopp: I'm glad you find my articles useful, and I'm glad that you enjoyed The Gnoll Credo.

                      JS

                      Comment


                      • #86
                        Originally posted by bloodorchid View Post
                        lol...

                        sigh...

                        the point of it was, he set out to debunk otzi's potato feast

                        to do so, he did not do the plan as planned

                        therein lies the point of contention
                        +1

                        Once you get out of the Potatoes-Only zone, you're just eating a potato heavy diet. Nobody ever said that potatoes were magic. IOW, the Potato + tuna + eggs regiment isn't a whole lot more valid in disproving potatoes-only than would be the Potato + peanut butter cups regiment.

                        And no matter how many articles you write, no matter how many graphs you generate, while the information here may provide something useful to someone, it does nothing to prove or disprove the potato-only hack.
                        "Right is right, even if no one is doing it; wrong is wrong, even if everyone is doing it." - St. Augustine

                        B*tch-lite

                        Who says back fat is a bad thing? Maybe on a hairy guy at the beach, but not on a crab.

                        Comment


                        • #87
                          i'm not annoyed at richard because i don't go to his blog, and i don't care what he does

                          but it would have been nice to see a study with graphs done on the actual potato hack to go with the gloats of 'it doesn't work, plebes'
                          beautiful
                          yeah you are

                          Baby if you time travel back far enough you can avoid that work because the dust won't be there. You're too pretty to be working that hard.
                          lol

                          Comment


                          • #88
                            Originally posted by tatertot View Post
                            Is that a bowl of mashed potatoes???
                            Nah, it's sour grapes.

                            Comment


                            • #89
                              I'm sorry it took me a while to get this out, but these graphs are a bit time consuming to produce.



                              The above graph shows my body weight and body fat percentage starting from the baseline and throughout the various phases of the intervention. Each of the dotted lines is the trend over the similarly colored phase.

                              As with all things in life, there is some good news and some bad news. The good news is that in all phases of the intervention, the body fat percentage is trending downwards. The bad news is twofold:

                              First, we are only measuring lower body fat here because it is a bioelectrical impedance measurement scale that is being used, and the electric current will take the shortest path through the body, hence legs and pelvis only, no upper body.

                              Second, the nature of this measurement makes it very susceptible to hydration levels, and as one retains water, electrical resistance drops, and that is interpreted as a decrease in body fat. This is most clearly seen with the observation I've marked on the graph as "confounding effect of water weight."

                              On that particular day, you will notice that my weight spiked relative to the previous and subsequent days. This is pretty clearly a change in retained water. This spike in weight also happens to coincide with the lowest measured body fat percentage during the rice CHO phase. So, either I gained some muscle mass and immediately lost it overnight, thereby causing my body fat percentage to change, or, it was all water. My money is on the water argument.

                              But there is a silver lining here, and that is in the high fat phase. By all rights, in this phase I should be shedding water due to the significantly restricted carbohydrate intake relative to the potato and rice phases. That muffled sound you just heard was ChocoTaco bellowing an "AHA!!" Of course, as the wheels slowly grind, Choco may eventually come to realize that this should cause the electrical resistance of my body to increase, which would accordingly be interpreted by the scale as an increase in body fat. But that doesn't happen, in fact, as my body weight drops ( and Choco claims this is all water ), so does the measured body fat.

                              Interesting, eh Watson?

                              -PK
                              My blog : cogitoergoedo.com

                              Interested in Intermittent Fasting? This might help: part 1, part 2, part 3.

                              Comment


                              • #90
                                Originally posted by bloodorchid View Post
                                lol...

                                sigh...

                                the point of it was, he set out to debunk otzi's potato feast

                                to do so, he did not do the plan as planned

                                therein lies the point of contention
                                Please don't speak on my behalf until I nominate you as an official spokesperson for me. I have not, nor do I intend to ever do so.

                                I didn't set out to debunk Otzi's potato feast. I set out to try to come up with an explanation for what the underlying mechanism might be. If you are incapable of distinguishing between those two things, then we are too far apart to have a meaningful discussion.

                                I fully expected that this "hack" works as an involuntary caloric restriction diet. The very first post that Otzi wrote explicitly advises people to not count calories and to eat until "full." This is pretty much a blaring alarm klaxon telling you that you're being lured into a calorie restricted diet.

                                Because of this analytical framework, I fully expected that any calorie restricted isocaloric diet would produce the same results, irrespective of macro nutrient composition. This explains my approach with the three phases. I was wrong. I surprised myself with the results. I'm sorry that they didn't correspond to mine, yours, or anyone else's preconceived notions, but that's the nature of the beast. Data doesn't generally lie.

                                Lastly, deconstruction is trivially easy, all it takes is to point your finger at someone and tell them they suck. Construction, on the other hand, requires a bit more effort. If you wish someone had done this with the genuine, full bore, Otzi approved, all potato, all the time regimen, what exactly is stopping you from doing that? At the very least, I've made it easier for you by providing a template for how one might go about it. And again, let me repeat this ... for anyone that wants to do this, I will gladly help you with your data presentation, all you need to do is invest a modicum of effort.

                                -PK
                                My blog : cogitoergoedo.com

                                Interested in Intermittent Fasting? This might help: part 1, part 2, part 3.

                                Comment

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