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  • Originally posted by Owly View Post
    Vonbraun, massive misread of that study. That study is saying that low protein intakes are worse than none because if you eat some protein but not enough, your body does not go into preservation mode. In a no-protein state, the body realizes there's a scarcity and so goes into a conservation state that protects your lean mass.
    Sorry you are the one misreading the study, i just read it.

    proteinturnover2.png

    So 50g of protein intake is likely (in the shorter term) to lead to a greater loss of LBM than straight-up fasting because under fasting conditions, the body takes steps to protect itself that it won't take if you keep eating some but not enough.
    Cite? This study shows that 50g of protein which is on the lower end of normal protein intake, is definitely preferable to no protein, even over a short period of a few days. You really think that eating no protein over say 5 days is preferable to eating 50g a day of protein over 5 days?

    Comment


    • proteinturnover3.jpg

      dietary intake of 0.6 g, consistant with the view that
      this intake is close to the requirement value. In the
      fasted state, the variations in oxidation with intake
      were much less pronounced, and in the study of Yang
      et al., they were absent.

      Comment


      • While I'm very interested in that paper (now that I found it) ...it's this one right? "Influence of Dietary Protein
        Intake on Whole-Body Protein Turnover in Humans" from Diabetes Care 1991.

        Papers like this one Higher Protein Intake Preserves Lean Mass and Satiety with Weight Loss in Pre-obese and Obese Women - Leidy - 2012 - Obesity - Wiley Online Library are actually much more to the point in direct comparison of high (1.4g/kg) vs moderate-low (0.8g/kg) effect.

        "While the Recommended Dietary Allowance for protein intake is 0.8 grams protein/kg per day (23), we found that women who consumed an HP (≅1.4 g protein/kg per day) energy-restricted weight loss diet experienced a greater preservation of LBM, smaller reduction in satiety, and increased global pleasure while losing body weight and body fat compared with women who consumed a similar energy deficit with NP intake (≅0.8 g protein/kg per day). Furthermore, we identified a differential response to an HP diet based on obesity classification such that POB women, especially those who consumed the HP diet, exhibited greater preservation of LBM compared with the OB women who consumed the typical Recommended Dietary Allowance for protein."

        Comment


        • Originally posted by vonbraun View Post
          This study shows that 50g of protein which is on the lower end of normal protein intake, is definitely preferable to no protein, even over a short period of a few days. You really think that eating no protein over say 5 days is preferable to eating 50g a day of protein over 5 days?
          While I disagree with your interpretation of the data, I will give you credit for attempting to put together an argument based at least partly on your understanding of the science.

          I don't think anyone is advocating going 5 days with zero protein, in fact, I am advocating increasing the protein intake on the potato diet for which I am catching no end of flak. That part of your argument is nothing but a red herring.

          We are not discussing protein requirements per se, but rather, protein requirements in the face of a caloric deficit. Within a reduced calorie context, higher protein intake is beneficial. Consider this study:

          Effect of a Hypocaloric Diet, Increased Protein Intake and Resistance Training on Lean Mass Gains and Fat Mass Loss in Overweight Police Officers

          A randomized, prospective 12-week study was performed comparing the changes in body composition produced by three different treatment modalities in three study groups. One group (n = 10) was placed on a nonlipogenic, hypocaloric diet alone (80% of predicted needs). A second group (n = 14) was placed on the hypocaloric diet plus resistance exercise plus a high-protein intake (1.5 g/kg/day) using a casein protein hydrolysate. In the third group (n = 14) treatment was identical to the second, except for the use of a whey protein hydrolysate. We found that weight loss was approximately 2.5 kg in all three groups.

          So we have three groups, eating isocalorically at 80% of body weight maintenance, group one eating the RDA of 0.8g / kg PRO, the other two groups are also exercising, but eating double the RDA of protein at 1.5 g / kg, and lo and behold they all lose the same amount of weight. Case closed. Increased protein is irrelevant.

          But that would be a hasty conclusion, because the researchers measured more than mere mass changes:
          The mean fat loss was 2.5 0.6, 7.0 2.1 and 4.2 0.9 kg in the three groups, respectively. Lean mass gains in the three groups did not change for diet alone, versus gains of 4 1.4 and 2 0.7 kg in the casein and whey groups, respectively.

          So, the RDA protein intake group retained their muscle mass, but lost the 2.5 kg of fat. The high protein intake group actually lost more than double the amount of fat, but because they also put on muscle mass, the net change in body mass matched that of the RDA protein group. The really interesting group is the one ingesting their protein as casein, a slow digesting milk protein fraction, because they lost significantly more fat, and gained significantly more muscle as well, three times the fat mass lost, and double the muscle mass gain of the whey protein group!

          If you are an active individual in caloric deficit, you should probably look at at upping your casein intake!

          -PK
          My blog : cogitoergoedo.com

          Interested in Intermittent Fasting? This might help: part 1, part 2, part 3.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by pklopp View Post
            If you are an active individual in caloric deficit, you should probably look at at upping your casein intake!

            -PK
            Such as? I was reading Lyle McDonald yesterday, The Rapid Fat Loss Handbook, and it suggested no fat dairy, .9g per LBM (for my category) and all the veggies you want but no starchy veggies like peas, carrots, corn & beets. He only mentions potatoes on the free meal and I assume it is okay during the 5 hr refeed each week also.

            And several supplements including pot. & mag.

            I am doing an all tator week this week, but I would do this potato+ after that. The following week might not be the best since I will be tired of tators but after a weekend break, it might be okay. I was already thinking of doing the Rapid Fat Loss after my tator week.

            Good idea? Bad idea? I have plenty of fat yet to go around.

            The only thing I can do is take measurements and my scale.
            65lbs gone and counting!!

            Fat 2 Fit - One Woman's Journey

            Comment


            • Originally posted by gopintos View Post
              Such as? I was reading Lyle McDonald yesterday, The Rapid Fat Loss Handbook, and it suggested no fat dairy, .9g per LBM (for my category) and all the veggies you want but no starchy veggies like peas, carrots, corn & beets. He only mentions potatoes on the free meal and I assume it is okay during the 5 hr refeed each week also.

              And several supplements including pot. & mag.

              I am doing an all tator week this week, but I would do this potato+ after that. The following week might not be the best since I will be tired of tators but after a weekend break, it might be okay. I was already thinking of doing the Rapid Fat Loss after my tator week.

              Good idea? Bad idea? I have plenty of fat yet to go around.

              The only thing I can do is take measurements and my scale.
              Unfortunately, most people are in the same boat as you with respect to not being able to accurately measure body composition, and having to do with mass only. However, it's a start, and keeping accurate records of an admittedly equivocal metric is far preferable to keeping none.

              In the study I cited, I believe that they used a casein hydrolysate, but essentially, you would be looking at some protein powder rather than a whole food source. Unhydrolyzed casein is extremely slow to digest, which would go a very long way towards maintaining satiety, I expect. You could try this as a supplement, but that's not a hydrolysate. This is, but it is grotesquely expensive.

              Part of the reason for the expense is that in general hydrolysates taste absolutely awful, and it apparently requires great feats of science to overcome that. I would probably hold off and just go with whey, if I had to. The whey group gained 2 kg. lean mass and lost 4 kg. of fat mass. Nothing to sneeze at!

              Or you could go completely off the reservation and just add albacore tuna and egg whites to your potatoes ... just sayin'.

              -PK
              My blog : cogitoergoedo.com

              Interested in Intermittent Fasting? This might help: part 1, part 2, part 3.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by pklopp View Post
                Or you could go completely off the reservation and just add albacore tuna and egg whites to your potatoes ... just sayin'.

                -PK
                I will do that one next week Gosh I hate wasting yolks though. Did you save them for some other use?
                65lbs gone and counting!!

                Fat 2 Fit - One Woman's Journey

                Comment


                • Originally posted by gopintos View Post
                  I will do that one next week Gosh I hate wasting yolks though. Did you save them for some other use?
                  I completely feel your yolk empathy, and as a result, I only used egg whites that were already separated from Costco. I was extremely pleased in some sense when that phase of the experiment didn't pan out and I could proceed to using real, whole eggs again!

                  -PK
                  My blog : cogitoergoedo.com

                  Interested in Intermittent Fasting? This might help: part 1, part 2, part 3.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by paleo-bunny View Post
                    The OP made an arrogant supposition in the subject line. All bets are off as to this being a serious and genuine scientific investigation.
                    Was this directed at me? If so, I'm not following what you are saying with respect to the supposition that you claim I made?

                    -PK
                    My blog : cogitoergoedo.com

                    Interested in Intermittent Fasting? This might help: part 1, part 2, part 3.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by pklopp View Post
                      Was this directed at me? If so, I'm not following what you are saying with respect to the supposition that you claim I made?
                      Don't worry about it, PK. Paleo-bunny just likes to go around and pick fights for no particular reason. Then she arrogantly refers to anyone else who has an opinion as "arrogant". It is puzzling.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by otzi View Post
                        Hey, Rookie - Another first time poster, I see. I think this potato diet deal has pulled in more first-time posters than anything else.

                        I think I will do the potato diet again in the spring. When I do, it will be a well-thought-out approach not unlike what you are doing. 14 days is a long-ass time to eat potatoes, 3 5-day cycles sounds much easier. What I've seen, a day or two off does not hinder progress at all, unlike a ketogenic diet where a day of carb consumption can set you back weeks.
                        About 6 weeks ago I did 7 days of potatoes. I lost 8.2 lbs. Just before our Christmas staff party (this Saturday) I thought I might do it again (just wanting to look a little more gorgeous). When I weighed on the Saturday previous, before beginning, I had lost another lb. so I decided not to begin the diet after all and just continue to eat Primal. Would 6 weeks apart have been too soon to do another round?

                        Comment


                        • The popularity of the potato diet and success stories speak for themselves. IMO, it's been the most positive development on the forum for a long time.
                          F 5 ft 3. HW: 196 lbs. Primal SW (May 2011): 182 lbs (42% BF)... W June '12: 160 lbs (29% BF) (UK size 12, US size 8). GW: ~24% BF - have ditched the scales til I fit into a pair of UK size 10 bootcut jeans. Currently aligning towards 'The Perfect Health Diet' having swapped some fat for potatoes.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Rosemary 231 View Post
                            About 6 weeks ago I did 7 days of potatoes. I lost 8.2 lbs. Just before our Christmas staff party (this Saturday) I thought I might do it again (just wanting to look a little more gorgeous). When I weighed on the Saturday previous, before beginning, I had lost another lb. so I decided not to begin the diet after all and just continue to eat Primal. Would 6 weeks apart have been too soon to do another round?
                            I think 6 weeks is a good separation. Plenty of time to build up any micronutrients you may have depleted. Some folks just started a new thread http://www.marksdailyapple.com/forum/thread72366.html you should check out.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by pklopp View Post
                              While I disagree with your interpretation of the data, I will give you credit for attempting to put together an argument based at least partly on your understanding of the science.

                              I don't think anyone is advocating going 5 days with zero protein, in fact, I am advocating increasing the protein intake on the potato diet for which I am catching no end of flak. That part of your argument is nothing but a red herring.

                              We are not discussing protein requirements per se, but rather, protein requirements in the face of a caloric deficit. Within a reduced calorie context, higher protein intake is beneficial. Consider this study:


                              So we have three groups, eating isocalorically at 80% of body weight maintenance, group one eating the RDA of 0.8g / kg PRO, the other two groups are also exercising, but eating double the RDA of protein at 1.5 g / kg, and lo and behold they all lose the same amount of weight. Case closed. Increased protein is irrelevant.

                              But that would be a hasty conclusion, because the researchers measured more than mere mass changes:

                              So, the RDA protein intake group retained their muscle mass, but lost the 2.5 kg of fat. The high protein intake group actually lost more than double the amount of fat, but because they also put on muscle mass, the net change in body mass matched that of the RDA protein group. The really interesting group is the one ingesting their protein as casein, a slow digesting milk protein fraction, because they lost significantly more fat, and gained significantly more muscle as well, three times the fat mass lost, and double the muscle mass gain of the whey protein group!

                              If you are an active individual in caloric deficit, you should probably look at at upping your casein intake!

                              -PK
                              Pklopp,

                              I do agree with research that shows high protein diets are better for preserving LM when calorie restricting over several months - in the study linked, included weight lifting in the high protein groups but not the control normal protein group. My disagreement is whether it is reasonable to have considerable fear with a short term potato diet about significant lean muscle melting away. I think this fear is unfounded, it clearly isn't optimal for putting on LM but you aren't going to lose much cycling it for a week or two, especially if you added resistance training. And most people doing the potato diet/hack/cut are doing it < 1 week, and the max discussed seems to be 2 weeks.

                              You seem to have done a standard high protein diet that includes a fair amount of potatoes. You did 1500 calories and at least 130g protein(egg whites, tuna, potatoes). Which would look something like:
                              2 can tuna (more would be not recommended as being safe) - 40g protein, 200 calories
                              1.5 dozen egg whites - 63g protein, 306 calories
                              3.5 large potato - 28g protein, 1015 calories
                              for a total of 131g protein, 1521 calories.

                              Eating 2 cans tuna, 18 egg whites, and 3.5 large potatoes daily for a week is hardly something that could be accurately called a "potato diet". Maybe i should do a lean meat and potato diet where i consume 1.5g/kg protein and calorie restict and call it a "potato diet".

                              As far as casein being more useful, that may be true. However, there is some concern that higher casein relative to whey is unhealthy. I remember people saying the dr. campbell vegan guy from the china study book was manipulating his animal protein causes cancer theory by using isolated casein protein without the whey protein in his research. So keep that in mind if you are going to supplement with a lot of casein without the whey.
                              Last edited by vonbraun; 12-03-2012, 02:03 PM.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by otzi View Post
                                I think 6 weeks is a good separation. Plenty of time to build up any micronutrients you may have depleted. Some folks just started a new thread http://www.marksdailyapple.com/forum/thread72366.html you should check out.
                                Thanks, I'll have a look.

                                Comment

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