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  • #16
    Originally posted by Artbuc View Post
    Yep, it came as a total shock to me. I got interested in blood sugar when my trigs almost tripled in one year while I was eating a very high carb low fat diet. Starting coming here and began doing a little research. Became concerned about my BG so I bought a meter. FBG is typically 95 +/-. For dinner this afternoon I had 2 grms from broccoli, 1 grm from collard greens and 5 from US Wellness liverwurst. One hour postprandial was 138. At that point I had dessert - shredded unsweetened coconut, cacao nibs and half&half, about 6 grams. One hour later BG was 105.
    Everything that I know about blood glucose regulation tells me that 8-10 grams of carbs alone cannot possibly be causing that spike. You are making blood glucose by gluconeogenesis from your protein intake. You need a negative control to prove it, though. What does a zero-carb meal do for you? Try a big bowl of eggs or a steak and see what happens. You could also try a fat only meal as an additional control. If I am right, I'm not entirely sure what that means for you metabolically (doesn't seem good), but I am very curious now and want to look into it tomorrow.

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    • #17
      Originally posted by The Scientist View Post
      The only concussively demonstrated benefit that I have seen to extremely low, ketosis-inducing, carbohydrate restriction is weight loss. If you are at a healthy weight, eating 20-30% of your calories from carbs is no problem. I have found that about 10-15% makes me feel best, but I don't monitor it carefully, and I'm sure everyone is different.
      There are other health conditions which also have conclusively demonstrated benefits from ketosis. The one I am most familiar with is epilepsy. (Google Johns Hopkins+ketosis for lots of interesting info). I have also read accounts of benefits in other neurological disorders as well such as ADHD and the stabilization of bipolar disorders. Our own dear Cori here on this forum is suffering from a disorder causing increased inter-cranial pressure which she is convinced is helped greatly by staying in ketosis. (Anecdotal, I know but close to home.)

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      • #18
        Originally posted by The Scientist View Post
        The carbs of choice by many around here (sweet potatoes, squash, etc...) are free of all three of those issues.
        Some people (myself included) have an extreme sensetivity to carbs as I proved in spades this weekend. It didn't seem to matter if it was from "primal approved" carbs or not. I just lack the willpower to moderate my carb intake. And at the levels I was consuming, regardless of the source of the carbs "good" or "bad", I was probably doing myself more harm than good. Remember, even if they are good, primal approved carbs, they still spike blood sugar and can lead to weight gain if you don't moderate them.

        I have learned that I will have to be far more careful in the future.
        "The cling and a clang is the metal in my head when I walk. I hear a sort of, this tinging noise - cling clang. The cling clang. So many things happen while walking. The metal in my head clangs and clings as I walk - freaks my balance out. So the natural thought is just clogged up. Totally clogged up. So we need to unplug these dams, and make the the natural flow... It sort of freaks me out. We need to unplug the dams. You cannot stop the natural flow of thought with a cling and a clang..."

        Comment


        • #19
          Originally posted by statikcat View Post
          This isn't even close to accurate. Your body is designed for carbs, fats, and protein. Quality and natural source is what matters. If your metabolism is all screwed up it won't process anything very well. Fat can attribute to cholesterol, inflammation, and poor health as easily as carbs. You realize vegetable oils are probably one of the most inflammatory things you can consume? That is mostly fat.
          I was reading a cholesterol study that graphed out the different types of carbs along with the harm they caused. All of them were pretty bad. Ill link sometime when I am not on my phone.

          With that being said, some carbs are better than other but, light cigarettes are better than full tar cigs and no one says "smoke the good cigarettes." Good is actually less bad.

          Maybe I'll look into some good research on my own a d post what I find.

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          • #20
            The only effectively confirmed advantage that I have seen to incredibly low, carbs limitation is losing body weight. If you are at a good and balanced body weight, consuming 20-30% of your calorie consumption from carbohydrates is no issue. I have discovered that about 10-15% creates me experience best, but I don't examine it properly, and I'm sure everyone is different...
            Last edited by hamston; 11-28-2012, 09:50 PM.

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            • #21
              Originally posted by The Scientist View Post
              Everything that I know about blood glucose regulation tells me that 8-10 grams of carbs alone cannot possibly be causing that spike. You are making blood glucose by gluconeogenesis from your protein intake. You need a negative control to prove it, though. What does a zero-carb meal do for you? Try a big bowl of eggs or a steak and see what happens. You could also try a fat only meal as an additional control. If I am right, I'm not entirely sure what that means for you metabolically (doesn't seem good), but I am very curious now and want to look into it tomorrow.
              Here is a post I found on another forum. Maybe I am eating too much protein?

              "Yes, protein is converted to glucose above and beyond your blood sugar needs if it there is no room in the muscles for the excess glucose (because you either eat too much protein or you don't exercise enough). I've seen it happen in my own body many times on ZC, since I started taking my BG.

              Unfortunately, although this is a great question, asking people's experience with this will not give you the most reliable answers unless they're actually checking BG - otherwise, there is no way to tell what's going on with BG. But yes, weight gain can be an indicator. Likely when you were eating higher protein and lower fat, your calories were just lower than when you increased fat by a lot, Kristelle, and that's why your weight was lower.

              I had a chronically high BG on a zero-carb diet because I wasn't yet exercising the way I do now, and the glucose had nowhere to go if I consumed more than about 80 g protein a day. Now that I weightlift, my body needs more like 130 g of protein to support my lean mass, but if I exceed that, I get high BG, even with exercise, (unless I do something especially vigorous or lengthy, like do a 2-hour hike, etc.)."

              Comment


              • #22
                Originally posted by Kingofturtles View Post
                I was reading a cholesterol study that graphed out the different types of carbs along with the harm they caused. All of them were pretty bad. Ill link sometime when I am not on my phone.

                With that being said, some carbs are better than other but, light cigarettes are better than full tar cigs and no one says "smoke the good cigarettes." Good is actually less bad.

                Maybe I'll look into some good research on my own a d post what I find.
                Sorry, you are way off if you think an entire macro nutrient is harmful. You realize vegetables are mostly carbs? You think sweet potato causes harm? Carbs are arguably as bad as fats if they are from bad food. Do you know how many people have perfectly fine cholesterol eating low fat? Do you think the African Olympic runners are loading on fat? Do they have high cholesterol?

                And if you get this info from simply reading a study you are probably misunderstanding it or the study is bad science. You can find a study that says anything. A lot of studies from what you speak of are working with overweight sick people. Should I, as a healthy fit person, follow rules given to obese people? Do you think they got that way eating potatoes and fruit? No they got that way by over eating processed junk food. It is really that simple.
                Last edited by statikcat; 11-26-2012, 08:16 AM.

                Comment


                • #23
                  Originally posted by statikcat View Post
                  Sorry, you are way off if you think an entire macro nutrient is harmful. This is massive misinformation. You realize vegetables are mostly carbs? You think sweet potato causes harm? Carbs are arguably as bad as fats if they are from bad food. Do you know how many people have perfectly fine cholesterol eating low fat? Do you think the African Olympic runners are loading on fat? Do they have high cholesterol?

                  And if you get this info from simply reading a study you are probably misunderstanding it or the study is bad science. You can find a study that says anything. A lot of studies from what you speak of are working with overweight sick people. Do you think they got that way eating potatoes and fruit? No they got that way by over eating processed junk food. It is really that simple.
                  Very true indeed, the Devil stick in overly processed salty/sweet junk food, the "evil food", that makes us overeat and get addicted to...
                  "All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident."

                  - Schopenhauer

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Originally posted by Artbuc View Post
                    Here is a post I found on another forum. Maybe I am eating too much protein?

                    "Yes, protein is converted to glucose above and beyond your blood sugar needs if it there is no room in the muscles for the excess glucose (because you either eat too much protein or you don't exercise enough). I've seen it happen in my own body many times on ZC, since I started taking my BG.

                    Unfortunately, although this is a great question, asking people's experience with this will not give you the most reliable answers unless they're actually checking BG - otherwise, there is no way to tell what's going on with BG. But yes, weight gain can be an indicator. Likely when you were eating higher protein and lower fat, your calories were just lower than when you increased fat by a lot, Kristelle, and that's why your weight was lower.

                    I had a chronically high BG on a zero-carb diet because I wasn't yet exercising the way I do now, and the glucose had nowhere to go if I consumed more than about 80 g protein a day. Now that I weightlift, my body needs more like 130 g of protein to support my lean mass, but if I exceed that, I get high BG, even with exercise, (unless I do something especially vigorous or lengthy, like do a 2-hour hike, etc.)."
                    Let me know if you do the protein-only (and fat-only) test. Also, have you been given a glucose tolerance test by a physician? Type-2 diabetics will produce a significant insulin response to a protein only meal. They don't have a sufficient insulin response to pull free amino acids out of their blood fast enough, so gluconeogenesis proceeds quickly to get rid of them. Of course, the same blunted insulin response leaves them unable to get rid of the resulting glucose, too. I'm going to attach an image showing some data from a paper describing this response in diabetic patients. These patients have high fasting glucose levels (average ~180), and it spikes to anywhere from 200-300 after eating some steak with no carbs. Your fasting glucose seems normal, but your response (increase of ~40) after a low carb meal seems possible given this data. I'm not a clinician, so I don't know exactly what this means for you (assuming my hypothesis is correct), but it doesn't seem good. Hopefully it will improve with time spent eating clean food. The good news is that a brief spike to 140 after a meal is not high enough to do damage itself, it is just a bad sign of underlying problems.
                    Glucose response.jpg

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Guys, it's not as simple as "eat good carbs" and "eliminate bad carbs." Yes some carbs are better than others, but they all still spike blood sugar and can lead to weight gain. And NONE of you have brought up the fact that some folks are more sensitive (IE me) to carbs than others. So far you have treated the issue as if everyone processes them exactly the same way and they impact everyone the same. This is not true, and individual carb intake from all sources should vary by individual given their level of sensitivity.

                      The problem with the term "good" vs. "bad" is that it doesn't allow for variences and assumes "that carb is good, you can eat as much of it as you want." "That carb is bad, never eat it."

                      You can still go overboard, even on the good carbs, and cause weight gain. I can't even be trusted with squash and sweet potatoes.
                      "The cling and a clang is the metal in my head when I walk. I hear a sort of, this tinging noise - cling clang. The cling clang. So many things happen while walking. The metal in my head clangs and clings as I walk - freaks my balance out. So the natural thought is just clogged up. Totally clogged up. So we need to unplug these dams, and make the the natural flow... It sort of freaks me out. We need to unplug the dams. You cannot stop the natural flow of thought with a cling and a clang..."

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Originally posted by Drumroll View Post
                        You can still go overboard, even on the good carbs, and cause weight gain. I can't even be trusted with squash and sweet potatoes.
                        Hey Drumroll - Not trying to get too personal or anything, but have you ever had a problem with substance abuse or gambling? There is a link I have been reading about in cannaboid receptors in the brain firing on certain foods which gives the same effect as getting the munchies while smoking pot or the rush that gamblers get. I think there were a few other hormones involved as well.

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Originally posted by statikcat View Post
                          Sorry, you are way off if you think an entire macro nutrient is harmful. You realize vegetables are mostly carbs? You think sweet potato causes harm? Carbs are arguably as bad as fats if they are from bad food. Do you know how many people have perfectly fine cholesterol eating low fat? Do you think the African Olympic runners are loading on fat? Do they have high cholesterol?

                          And if you get this info from simply reading a study you are probably misunderstanding it or the study is bad science. You can find a study that says anything. A lot of studies from what you speak of are working with overweight sick people. Should I, as a healthy fit person, follow rules given to obese people? Do you think they got that way eating potatoes and fruit? No they got that way by over eating processed junk food. It is really that simple.
                          I doubt the study was incorrect, I don't doubt I misunderstood it tho.

                          How about this one The straight dope on cholesterol
                          "The role of sugar"
                          My belief was that all carbs are broken down into sugar.

                          Let me know ur take on it pls

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Originally posted by The Scientist View Post
                            Let me know if you do the protein-only (and fat-only) test. Also, have you been given a glucose tolerance test by a physician? Type-2 diabetics will produce a significant insulin response to a protein only meal. They don't have a sufficient insulin response to pull free amino acids out of their blood fast enough, so gluconeogenesis proceeds quickly to get rid of them. Of course, the same blunted insulin response leaves them unable to get rid of the resulting glucose, too. I'm going to attach an image showing some data from a paper describing this response in diabetic patients. These patients have high fasting glucose levels (average ~180), and it spikes to anywhere from 200-300 after eating some steak with no carbs. Your fasting glucose seems normal, but your response (increase of ~40) after a low carb meal seems possible given this data. I'm not a clinician, so I don't know exactly what this means for you (assuming my hypothesis is correct), but it doesn't seem good. Hopefully it will improve with time spent eating clean food. The good news is that a brief spike to 140 after a meal is not high enough to do damage itself, it is just a bad sign of underlying problems.
                            [ATTACH]10061[/ATTACH]
                            Yikes, my 1 hr postprandial went up 24 points after a protein only meal, just like these seriously diabetic folks. Sent you a PM with details as this is getting off the good carb - bad carb topic.

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Originally posted by Kingofturtles View Post
                              I doubt the study was incorrect, I don't doubt I misunderstood it tho.

                              How about this one The straight dope on cholesterol
                              "The role of sugar"
                              My belief was that all carbs are broken down into sugar.

                              Let me know ur take on it pls
                              All carbs are converted to glucose, not sugar. A sugar molecule is a glucose molecule bonded to a fructose molecule.

                              Good carbs are fruits and vegetables, both of which have slow absorption rates. The carbs to watch for are the processed ones (as others have mentioned).

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Originally posted by otzi View Post
                                Hey Drumroll - Not trying to get too personal or anything, but have you ever had a problem with substance abuse or gambling? There is a link I have been reading about in cannaboid receptors in the brain firing on certain foods which gives the same effect as getting the munchies while smoking pot or the rush that gamblers get. I think there were a few other hormones involved as well.
                                Nope, never been addicted to anything in my life, neither a substance or an activity.

                                Never even smoked a thing in my life, not once.
                                "The cling and a clang is the metal in my head when I walk. I hear a sort of, this tinging noise - cling clang. The cling clang. So many things happen while walking. The metal in my head clangs and clings as I walk - freaks my balance out. So the natural thought is just clogged up. Totally clogged up. So we need to unplug these dams, and make the the natural flow... It sort of freaks me out. We need to unplug the dams. You cannot stop the natural flow of thought with a cling and a clang..."

                                Comment

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