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Are we really genetically similar to the paleo men and women?

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  • #61
    Originally posted by otzi View Post
    Hopefully you don't get chased off from here by our resident crazies, but since Paleobird (just kidding...) has taken a liking to you, that may not happen...

    I do have a serious question for you, and it kind of fits into this thread topic. I read this article a while back: The sweet thing about Type 1 diabetes: a cryo... [Med Hypotheses. 2005] - PubMed - NCBI

    The authors believe that diabetes is an adaptation to the cold weather our ancestors encountered on their journey North. If this is true, we may be looking at diabetes and other 'diseases' in the wrong light. From the abstract:

    "When life expectancy was short, factors predisposing to Type 1 diabetes provided a survival advantage. However, deleterious consequences of this condition have become significant only in more modern times, as life expectancy has increased, thus outweighing their protective value. Examples of evolutionary adaptations conferring selection advantages against human pathogens that result in deleterious effects have been previously reported as epidemic pathogenic selection (EPS). Such proposed examples include the cystic fibrosis mutations in the CFTR gene bestowing resistance to Salmonella typhi and hemochromatosis mutations conferring protection against iron-seeking intracellular pathogens. This paper is one of the first accounts of a metabolic disorder providing a selection advantage not against a pathogenic stressor alone, but rather against a climatic change. We thus believe that the concept of EPS should now include environmental factors that may be nonorganismal in nature. In so doing we propose that factors resulting in Type 1 diabetes be considered a result of environmental pathogenic selection (EnPS)."

    Any thoughts on this line of thinking and how we can use it to our advantage?
    I won't have access to the full article until I get back to work tomorrow, so I just going off the abstract for now:

    Their logic makes sense, and it seems possible, but a few things bother me.

    Supporting their argument: Incidence is definitely higher as you move north, and higher glucose levels certainly would prevent tissues from freezing to some degree.

    Against: Even though the incidence is higher in northern Europe, it is still relatively low (1 in 2700) compared to other diseases encouraged by secondary selection pressures like sickle cell anemia in Africa (1 in 500). So if there was a benefit, it must have been fairly small.

    The big thing that I don't like is that if there was a benefit to elevated glucose levels, I would expect to see a general elevation in fasting glucose levels across the pollution, bot just an extra 10 or 20 people per 100,000 with a sever auto-immune disease. If Scandinavians everywhere had fasting glucose levels that were 10, 20, 30 etc... mg/dl higher than others, I would say absolutely. I don't think this is the case, but I don't know for sure since I can't see the whole paper. It just seems like there are many more ways to select for increased glucose that are less severe than developing an auto-immune response, and I would have thought that those genotypes would be in a population and available for selection. Again, just speculation....

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    • #62
      Originally posted by otzi View Post
      I wasn't even thinking about cold thermogenesis when I wrote that, more along the lines of seasonal eating. I think that eating the exact same way, even paleo/primal, isn't the best plan. Seems to me we'd want to change up our habits based on sunlight/vit D/temperatures/etc...
      Yeah I didn't mean that the current topic was CT-related, I was just noting how much you like cold-related topics haha. I agree about the seasonality angle (wasn't there some post by mark about a book coming out about that?).

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      • #63
        Originally posted by Paleobird View Post
        Dear The Scientist,

        I adore you and your well educated, informed, scientifically accurate, and articulately written posts.

        A hearty Primal welcome to you. Please stick around. This forum could always use more folks like you.

        Robin
        I also 100% agree with Paleobird. I'm a scientist groupie.

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        • #64
          Originally posted by Goldie View Post
          I also 100% agree with Paleobird. I'm a scientist groupie.
          It appears that I have found the only known place where a scientist can acquire a groupie. It is good to know that there are people out there ready to dig into the science of where they came from, what they are made of and what they are consuming. It doesn't get much more fascinating than that to me.

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          • #65
            Originally posted by The Scientist View Post
            It appears that I have found the only known place where a scientist can acquire a groupie. It is good to know that there are people out there ready to dig into the science of where they came from, what they are made of and what they are consuming. It doesn't get much more fascinating than that to me.
            So, from perusing these forums, do you see any glaring mistakes we are making in our dietary choices?

            Comment


            • #66
              Originally posted by Paleobird View Post
              This should be made into a sticky. Would you mind if I quoted this to the next person going on about how cutting out grains "isn't natural"?

              p.s. Good to see you, JS. I love the Gnolls site. I read the fist chapter of the Credo and keep meaning to download the rest of it.
              Please do quote it! I may even write an article at some point, since it seems to be such a persistent myth. There's a huge pressure on scientists to make BIG DISCOVERIES...so archaeological findings are frequently, um, exaggerated.

              I'm glad you find my articles valuable!

              Note that you'll have to buy an actual book if you want to read The Gnoll Credo. Despite what some pirate/torrent websites claim, they don't have the full book available for download - just the teaser you've already read.

              Comment


              • #67
                Originally posted by J. Stanton View Post
                Please do quote it! I may even write an article at some point, since it seems to be such a persistent myth. There's a huge pressure on scientists to make BIG DISCOVERIES...so archaeological findings are frequently, um, exaggerated.

                I'm glad you find my articles valuable!
                Wow, I totally missed that you posted here. I've spent days reading your blogs and links. Hope we see more of you here.

                edit to add: I see you haven't posted since April, then all of a sudden you and 'The Scientist' start posting really awesome stuff on the same day--are we being set up for something?
                Last edited by otzi; 11-25-2012, 04:54 PM.

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                • #68
                  Originally posted by otzi View Post
                  So, from perusing these forums, do you see any glaring mistakes we are making in our dietary choices?
                  I don't think so. Mark's proposed ideal diet seems to be just that. I think there is room for self-experimentation, though. I am a big fan of trying things out and seeing what happens. For example, I have no negative reaction to dairy or legumes at all. Wheat makes me feel sluggish, so I stay away. Everyone is different when it comes to details and you should try things out (within reason).

                  Comment


                  • #69
                    Originally posted by otzi View Post
                    Wow, I totally missed that you posted here. I've spent days reading your blogs and links. Hope we see more of you here.

                    edit to add: I see you haven't posted since April, then all of a sudden you and 'The Scientist' start posting really awesome stuff on the same day--are we being set up for something?
                    uh ... the coming energy shift?


                    EDIT: yeah... the above comment was sarcastic...
                    Last edited by jojohaligo; 11-26-2012, 09:32 PM.
                    Female, age 51, 5' 9"
                    SW - 183 (Jan 22, 2012), CW - 159, GW - healthy.

                    Met my 2012 goals by losing 24 pounds.
                    2013 goals are to get fit and strong!

                    Comment


                    • #70
                      Originally posted by jojohaligo View Post
                      uh ... the coming energy shift?

                      Comment


                      • #71
                        Originally posted by J. Stanton View Post
                        Please do quote it! I may even write an article at some point, since it seems to be such a persistent myth. There's a huge pressure on scientists to make BIG DISCOVERIES...so archaeological findings are frequently, um, exaggerated.

                        I'm glad you find my articles valuable!

                        Note that you'll have to buy an actual book if you want to read The Gnoll Credo. Despite what some pirate/torrent websites claim, they don't have the full book available for download - just the teaser you've already read.
                        No, no, JS. I wasn't talking about pirating it. I meant a Kindle download. Is it available on Kindle or only as a physical book?

                        And we really could use your input around here. Another persistent bit of archaeological mis-information is about the so called "Venus" statuettes somehow proving that lots of women were obese back then. Hello? They were fertility symbols, not literal representations.

                        Comment


                        • #72
                          Originally posted by Whitefox View Post

                          Anyways, The Scientist you're a PhD in Cell Bio, and you work in a lab? Do tell (aspiring researcher/medical student here, though I'm an undergraduate. My sister is applying for PhD programs in cell bio or biophysics right now, in fact, so any insights into the Life of Sci would be cool).
                          I started a new thread in the research section responding to this.

                          Comment


                          • #73
                            Originally posted by Paleobird View Post
                            No, no, JS. I wasn't talking about pirating it. I meant a Kindle download. Is it available on Kindle or only as a physical book?

                            And we really could use your input around here. Another persistent bit of archaeological mis-information is about the so called "Venus" statuettes somehow proving that lots of women were obese back then. Hello? They were fertility symbols, not literal representations.

                            ...and thinking of the Venus of Willendorf as a fertility symbol is also speculation. Educated speculation, but still a guess.
                            Female, age 51, 5' 9"
                            SW - 183 (Jan 22, 2012), CW - 159, GW - healthy.

                            Met my 2012 goals by losing 24 pounds.
                            2013 goals are to get fit and strong!

                            Comment


                            • #74
                              Originally posted by jojohaligo View Post
                              ...and thinking of the Venus of Willendorf as a fertility symbol is also speculation. Educated speculation, but still a guess.
                              In his book, The Fat Switch, Dr Richard Johnson MD, University of Colorado, talks about speculations that the headdress on these figurines represents a beehive. Their lab thinks fructose triggers the body to put on fat for lean months (through increasing intracellular uric acid). Honey being high in fructose would have added fat gains. The speculation in the book was that maybe some of the girls were feed honey for putting on weight to get through lean periods and famine. That weight would aid in childbearing during such times. I don't know anyone could prove without a written record.
                              Would I be putting a grain-feed cow on a fad diet if I took it out of the feedlot and put it on pasture eating the grass nature intended?

                              Comment


                              • #75
                                Originally posted by jojohaligo View Post
                                ...and thinking of the Venus of Willendorf as a fertility symbol is also speculation. Educated speculation, but still a guess.
                                What I find reasonable is that the artists that made realistic figures like that, must have seen some obese persons to model their art...
                                "All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident."

                                - Schopenhauer

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