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Normal?--Going carb crazy even with a little bit of carbs?

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  • #61
    Originally posted by Neckhammer View Post
    In general I don't disagree that you could just do "eat real food" and call it a day. I do disagree with fearmongering though. If you want to be macro agnostic then don't be two faced about it. It has to go both ways....
    I think promoting low carb and high fat is fear mongering. I also think promoting low fat is fear mongering. Just eat real food that makes you feel good. If you feel crappy eating lots of potatoes and feel better scaling back carbs, then do it. Just don't plan your diet around some curve in a book.
    Don't put your trust in anyone on this forum, including me. You are the key to your own success.

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    • #62
      Originally posted by ChocoTaco369 View Post
      This is a logical fallacy. Just because you say it's a fact doesn't make it so. Please provide evidence showing that "the vast majority of hunter gatherers" were low carb.

      Paleolithic Timeline | Paleo Diet History | Book List | Evolvify

      The further and further you go back in the paleolithic timeline, the less meat and fat you find and the more fruit and starch you find. A lot of this has to do with the fact that we didn't develop the technology to survive in cold weather environments where fatty game is common until fairly recently. The traditional societies today are almost exclusively higher carb, and the societies with higher fat intakes in existence today has their fat coming mostly from coconuts, nuts and seeds, not fatty animals. I think you couldn't be more wrong. Even Inuits, the most extreme society the low carb zealots argue for, ate ~15% of their dietary calories from carbs, which is significantly more than you get on keto.


      Again, you have no evidence that show the majority of hunter gatherers were low carb. The evidence I presented shows the exact opposite. "Because I said so" is not an argument. There is also no evidence that eating whole food carbohydrate while sedentary is damaging.


      The best way is to stop thinking in terms of fat and carbs and just think in terms of real food. It doesn't matter if it's meat, fruit, roots, tubers, nuts, potatoes or vegetables. If it's real food and it makes you feel good, eat it.


      Avoiding grains, legumes and refined oils has been shown to be effective at reversing metabolic syndrome. Show me a study where macros were held the same as on the SAD, but replaced all the grains and legumes with sweet potatoes, plantains and fruit. Low carb diets naturally eliminate grains and legumes due to the starch content. It's not the carb removal showing the improvement, it's the removal of toxic lectins.
      I've posted this before, but I do note I got the numbers a bit mixed so here is the exact quote:

      "First of all, diet composition varied widely. Many groups were almost totally carnivorous, with 46 getting over 85% of their calories from hunted foods. However, not a single group out of 229 was vegetarian or vegan. No group got less than 15% of their calories from hunted foods, and only 2 of 229 groups ate 76-85% of their calories from gathered foods (don't forget, "gathered foods" also includes small animals). On average, the hunter-gatherer groups analyzed got about 70% of their calories from hunted foods. This makes the case that meat-heavy omnivory is our preferred ecological niche." - Whole Health Source: Composition of the Hunter-Gatherer Diet

      And yes I can still define low carb as less than 30% carbohydrate. This amount is 150g of a 2000 calorie diet. And again its only an average there are 46/229 getting less than 15% from carbs.

      But note that this isn't just some random blog post like yours is. This actually has reference to "Ethnographic Atlas" by Dr. George P. Murdock. This is also the book used by Eaton and Cordain in their published research. So please drone on about how its just something I'm just stating. Its as factual as we know at this time.

      There are very few to no societies left today that are untouched and still in the form of what their actual traditional diet was. The Okinawan are fine examples of that. Studying today's traditional diet is vastly different from what was consumed that actually produced superior health. Actual traditional Okinawan relied heavily on pork, hog, and lard.

      The evidence you present consists of one blog post. It has much more "because I say so" in it than what I have presented. BTW, I think I'll begin looking at "modern human species" and move forward in your link...I see no reason to make assertions from further back than that. Again, low carb shows great promise and has helped a lot of people in terms of both neurological problems and in treatment for metabolic syndrome. Its also proven to be a form of diet that many (I dare say most) HG's studied survived on BEFORE civilization encroached. I don't agree with unfounded fearmongering turning people away from what could be a life saving tool.

      This is my last response. I tire of going through the motions with you on this. Particularly because you will somehow divert this to "just eat real food" which nobody is even disagreeing with. I'm sure we are agreeable on about 90% of the issues so there is really no more I have to say here.
      Last edited by Neckhammer; 11-19-2012, 12:16 PM.

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      • #63
        Originally posted by Derpamix View Post
        If those foods were really as poisonous as some people make them out to be, a lot of people would be dropping dead.
        People are dropping dead. But like tobacco, it may take a few years.

        And on another note: Go troll another website. Your posts are idiotic.

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        • #64
          Originally posted by Bagwell View Post
          People are dropping dead. But like tobacco, it may take a few years.

          And on another note: Go troll another website. Your posts are idiotic.
          Oh, and sugar is killing people? Are you sure about that? Since around 1970 sucrose has seen a sharp decline in usage, yet diabetes and obesity has been increasing.

          Also, no one is "dropping dead". Life expectancy in 1st world countries is quite high. People may be unhealthy, but our life expectancy rate is much higher than it was before. Comfortable lifestyles and modern medical sciences' ability to treat acute infection aids in this, but processed food isn't just killing people on the spot, sorry. I know you feel like you've found the holy grail of health and longevity by eating like a caveman, but you really haven't. Go ahead and try to single out a variable of food consumption that is killing people though, I'll be waiting here.

          But, sure, I'm trolling.
          Make America Great Again

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          • #65
            Nobody is dropping dead from sugar unless they're severely diabetic. The CW diet sucks and people are getting fatter and health poorer, but it is a disease that kills slowly and takes years of life of you happen to die of a stroke or heart attack. It's more about the lack of quality of life in eating a CW diet than anything. I think the rest of the world is living proof that primal is not the only lifestyle out there. The human body is resilient.
            F 28/5'4/100 lbs

            "I'm not a psychopath, I'm a high-functioning sociopath; do your research."

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            • #66
              Originally posted by Damiana View Post
              Nobody is dropping dead from sugar unless they're severely diabetic. The CW diet sucks and people are getting fatter and health poorer, but it is a disease that kills slowly and takes years of life of you happen to die of a stroke or heart attack. It's more about the lack of quality of life in eating a CW diet than anything. I think the rest of the world is living proof that primal is not the only lifestyle out there. The human body is resilient.
              Not even. There is a lot wrong with the standard diet, it's true. Too much unsaturated fatty acids for example. People are unhealthy for a variety of reasons, ignorance being the biggest one. You don't know how many times I've tried to explain to people about the bullshit guidelines the FDA provides and having them basically tell me I'm a quack and "lol i think the gubment wuld know more than u!!!1" that I just don't even bother anymore. Dietary cholesterol, saturated fats, and sodium being my biggest pet peeves. "My veins hurt just looking at what you're eating man!" Rather irritating. Oops, kinda irrelevant rant there.
              Last edited by Derpamix; 11-23-2012, 02:28 PM.
              Make America Great Again

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              • #67
                Some of us are made like this. for me sugar is like cocaine or alcohol. I cannot have one. I have to have the whole packet and if I "come off the wagon" I am utterly lost. For us a 80./20 rules does not work at all - it would be like saying to the heroine addict - hey have just this little bit. Those who do not have this sugar addiction cannot really understand how it is for those in our category.

                The only answer is total abstinence. There are huge numbers of people like that. The process of getting clean from the addictive substance is important and then never stray and in fact you lose the urge anyway for sugar but do not think for one moment you are safe to try some. You aren't. radiantrecovery.com is a helpful resource.

                If I have loads of fruit or bananas or nuts and raisins I am also indulging the same sugar needs and I always want these even if I am utterly full to the brim, stuffed with good foods, veg, fat and protein. This is nothing to do with hunger. It is about the brain needing that hit of the sugar high - sugar affects the same bit of the brain as cocaine. I suspect women are more affected by this than men and it is not taken at all seriously by most people who think it is funny whereas if it were alcohol you were searching the house for they would be sympathetic.

                Anyway don't worry. Just move to giving it up. I use sugar and nuts/raisins when I wean myself off it. I do find even 80% cacao chocolate is exactly the same which works on the same bit of the brain as speed and keeps me up all night. I would avoid that too.

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                • #68
                  To the OP, I am slowly learning all this weekend, that this is me. In a BAAAAAAAD way.

                  I cannot control myself in the presense of carbs. They are like a freakin' gateway. Ugh.

                  After this weekend, It's a new leaf for me.
                  "The cling and a clang is the metal in my head when I walk. I hear a sort of, this tinging noise - cling clang. The cling clang. So many things happen while walking. The metal in my head clangs and clings as I walk - freaks my balance out. So the natural thought is just clogged up. Totally clogged up. So we need to unplug these dams, and make the the natural flow... It sort of freaks me out. We need to unplug the dams. You cannot stop the natural flow of thought with a cling and a clang..."

                  Comment


                  • #69
                    Originally posted by Drumroll View Post
                    To the OP, I am slowly learning all this weekend, that this is me. In a BAAAAAAAD way.

                    I cannot control myself in the presense of carbs. They are like a freakin' gateway. Ugh.

                    After this weekend, It's a new leaf for me.

                    (((HUGS))) I know how frustrating that is. I have found being in ketosis really helps a lot with the sugar cravings. I sat around last night and watched my whole family munch down apple, pumpkin, custard pies with whipped cream and coffee cake and it really didn't phase me. And that's weird, because I love sweets.....like, I REALLY LOVE SWEETS. So I have really found ketosis to be helpful in that aspect.

                    Now, had I had just one bite of pie or cake, it would have been over. I would have taken a ton of it down and I don't want to do that. So staying away completely works best for me as well. And I also agree, even when I have 90% dark chocolate, that still triggers me to crave sugar for days after eating it.

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                    • #70
                      Marissa, I was successfully VLC (with ocassional refeeds) for about a year. But this weekend has taught me that even the refeeds may be a bad idea from now on. In any form, primal or not.

                      I may have to accept it. My goal isn't so much to be in ketosis as it is to go back to VLC and stay that way. And that likely means ketosis will just naturally happen.

                      I'm still with family but starting tomorrow, I'm going to see if I can fast for the day and see if anyone says anything.

                      But yeah... I litterally am in excruciating pain right now. Damn my CW-worshiping family that eats grains as the CENTER of every meal and won't let me cook because they're afraid my diet is going to kill them. *shakes fist*

                      Sigh. This has been an enlightening weekend for me. Never again.
                      "The cling and a clang is the metal in my head when I walk. I hear a sort of, this tinging noise - cling clang. The cling clang. So many things happen while walking. The metal in my head clangs and clings as I walk - freaks my balance out. So the natural thought is just clogged up. Totally clogged up. So we need to unplug these dams, and make the the natural flow... It sort of freaks me out. We need to unplug the dams. You cannot stop the natural flow of thought with a cling and a clang..."

                      Comment


                      • #71
                        I consume most my carbs from vegetables (carrots, beats, gourds, beans), and am fine. But when I start on starch/grains, it triggers something and I immediately want to eat more. It's impossible to just try a bit of chocolate cake and stop at one bite.

                        I recently noticed that my heart starts beating faster and I feel 'off' after too much carbs (usually rice, fermented rice pancakes) after a meal. If just the right amount, I feel energized. This started happening when I've been lower-carb for awhile.

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                        • #72
                          Originally posted by Drumroll View Post
                          Marissa, I was successfully VLC (with ocassional refeeds) for about a year. But this weekend has taught me that even the refeeds may be a bad idea from now on. In any form, primal or not.

                          I may have to accept it. My goal isn't so much to be in ketosis as it is to go back to VLC and stay that way. And that likely means ketosis will just naturally happen.

                          I'm still with family but starting tomorrow, I'm going to see if I can fast for the day and see if anyone says anything.

                          But yeah... I litterally am in excruciating pain right now. Damn my CW-worshiping family that eats grains as the CENTER of every meal and won't let me cook because they're afraid my diet is going to kill them. *shakes fist*

                          Sigh. This has been an enlightening weekend for me. Never again.
                          I'm sorry to hear you are in pain. That's horrible. Same thing happens to me now if I ever try to eat any CW food with grains. I just won't do it anymore. That's why last night all I had was turkey and green bean casserole. I didn't want to put my body through eating all the other stuff that I knew would have made me feel really bad. I hope you feel better soon!!

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                          • #73
                            Originally posted by MarissaLinnea View Post
                            I'm sorry to hear you are in pain. That's horrible. Same thing happens to me now if I ever try to eat any CW food with grains. I just won't do it anymore. That's why last night all I had was turkey and green bean casserole. I didn't want to put my body through eating all the other stuff that I knew would have made me feel really bad. I hope you feel better soon!!
                            The annual pasta and bread dinner my family has at Christmas time is going to consist of me eating undressed salad this year.

                            *big sigh*

                            But I've got to do it or I'll feel like this all over again. Getting together with family is going to be so hard now. Food forms the center of our gaatherings and they all eat radically different than I do now. Who knew going primal would have an effect on social situations? I certainly wasn't considering that when I first made my decision to try it out.
                            "The cling and a clang is the metal in my head when I walk. I hear a sort of, this tinging noise - cling clang. The cling clang. So many things happen while walking. The metal in my head clangs and clings as I walk - freaks my balance out. So the natural thought is just clogged up. Totally clogged up. So we need to unplug these dams, and make the the natural flow... It sort of freaks me out. We need to unplug the dams. You cannot stop the natural flow of thought with a cling and a clang..."

                            Comment


                            • #74
                              Originally posted by Drumroll View Post
                              The annual pasta and bread dinner my family has at Christmas time is going to consist of me eating undressed salad this year.

                              *big sigh*

                              But I've got to do it or I'll feel like this all over again. Getting together with family is going to be so hard now. Food forms the center of our gaatherings and they all eat radically different than I do now. Who knew going primal would have an effect on social situations? I certainly wasn't considering that when I first made my decision to try it out.
                              Well why don't you prepare a couple Primal dishes and bring them with you? That way you have something you can eat, and also your family can try the foods that you eat and maybe realize that it's not bad at all. We are having the same thing at our house on xmas, the family cooks huge amounts of ravioli, but luckily they also make prime rib to go with the meal. But even so, I'm trying to figure out a couple dishes that I can make, or maybe some primal appetizers that I can share, that way I have some munchies and the family can try some of the foods that I really like. I feel bad not eating the meal like everyone else, but at the same time, now that I have discovered this sensitivity to wheat or gluten, I'm not going to put myself through that just to make everyone happy and eat the ravs. I'm sure they will understand. If not, then oh well, they will have to get over it.

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                              • #75
                                Originally posted by MarissaLinnea View Post
                                Well why don't you prepare a couple Primal dishes and bring them with you? That way you have something you can eat, and also your family can try the foods that you eat and maybe realize that it's not bad at all. We are having the same thing at our house on xmas, the family cooks huge amounts of ravioli, but luckily they also make prime rib to go with the meal. But even so, I'm trying to figure out a couple dishes that I can make, or maybe some primal appetizers that I can share, that way I have some munchies and the family can try some of the foods that I really like. I feel bad not eating the meal like everyone else, but at the same time, now that I have discovered this sensitivity to wheat or gluten, I'm not going to put myself through that just to make everyone happy and eat the ravs. I'm sure they will understand. If not, then oh well, they will have to get over it.
                                Because it will be on the other side of the country and I can't bring the ingredients with me on the plane?

                                Besides that, we usually have a full plate of activities planned on our Christmas trips, so I won't exactly have time to go shopping either. It's a nice idea Marissa, but it's TOTALLY not feasable given how things usually work.

                                Oh, and there would be some butt-hurt family members bitching about the fact that I have to be "difficult" and have "abnormal dietary needs." We do get sensitive about our food in this family.
                                "The cling and a clang is the metal in my head when I walk. I hear a sort of, this tinging noise - cling clang. The cling clang. So many things happen while walking. The metal in my head clangs and clings as I walk - freaks my balance out. So the natural thought is just clogged up. Totally clogged up. So we need to unplug these dams, and make the the natural flow... It sort of freaks me out. We need to unplug the dams. You cannot stop the natural flow of thought with a cling and a clang..."

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