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Normal?--Going carb crazy even with a little bit of carbs?

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  • #46
    What's that tribe that eats junk food along with their typical diet? The Hadza? They make a pretty compelling case that even junk food eating in moderation and in conjunction with a healthy lifestyle isn't harmful. More harmful than an apple, sure, but ultimately harmless. Obviously our bodies interpret a Twinkie as poison and do their best to detoxify and excrete the poison and assimilate the nutrients. I love the durability of the human body; it's why people can eat crap to great excess for several decades before it finally kills them, and it's the same reason I can eat half a dozen donuts on occasion relatively guilt free.

    And you're right, I was speculating about the point he was making. Who knows. The thread derailed into an argument about sugar when it shouldn't have.
    Last edited by Timthetaco; 11-18-2012, 11:41 AM.

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    • #47
      I don't get where all of this "processed" crap is coming from either. Most everything I eat is from sugar in its absolute purest form. I'm not advocating twinkies, or anything of the like. I take great care to make sure I'm not eating I won't agree with.

      But I do agree with Timthetaco. If those foods were really as poisonous as some people make them out to be, a lot of people would be dropping dead.
      Make America Great Again

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      • #48
        Originally posted by Derpamix View Post
        But I do agree with Timthetaco. If those foods were really as poisonous as some people make them out to be, a lot of people would be dropping dead.
        Seems we are in the middle of a chronic disease epidemic that's killing millions just here in the states.....Anyhow, like tim said, we are getting quite off topic so I'll just bow out until this comes back round to the thread topic.
        Last edited by Neckhammer; 11-18-2012, 12:42 PM.

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        • #49
          Originally posted by Neckhammer View Post
          Seriously....don't the Peatophiles have their own forum to spew fallacies on? There is no evolutionary argument that validates your statements about sugar.
          Hah! Thank you.

          Originally posted by Neckhammer View Post
          Evolutionary....ancestral....traditional......just cause these data sets don't jive with your personal dietary preference doesn't invalidate them. And, like it or not Primal is based on a combination of this epidemiological evidence along with biochemical science. If you wish to base your assertions strictly on cherry picked papers from biochemistry that's fine by me. But, my view is a bit broader. Either way why don't you just revive the danny roddy sugar thread so we can keep all this stuff in the same place?
          Somehow the Peat heads just can't seem to stay away from here. It's like Banana Boy coming over to troll about fruitarianism. *Sigh*

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          • #50
            Originally posted by Derpamix View Post
            lol there are plenty of things wrong with that list of foods and it's not sugar! note, everything I eat contains no additives that stress the digestive system or are known to cause any intense allergic reaction.
            Please understand that my crappy diet is where I end up when I consume "as much sugar as I want." I don't think sugar is very healthy.

            Originally posted by Paleobird View Post
            Somehow the Peat heads just can't seem to stay away from here. It's like Banana Boy coming over to troll about fruitarianism. *Sigh*
            All hopped up on sugar, probably.
            Female, 5'3", 50, Max squat: 202.5lbs. Max deadlift: 225 x 3.

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            • #51
              a lot of people would be dropping dead.
              They are. Go visit your local hospital. I work in one, and almost everybody sick here is diabetic from following gov't guidelines. While not all candy is created equal, most folks do not want to know which candy is actually toxic and which are just gateways to the toxic stuff. It's a very complex problem, in that these people have been conditioned to demand the right to poison themselves.
              Crohn's, doing SCD

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              • #52
                Originally posted by reallygravity View Post
                Is this normal, or it is a "willpower" situation?
                This is not a 'willpower' situation, but an 'insulin reaction' one.

                If you are wanting to indulge, you might try eating a good hunk of protein before or with your treat, and see if that helps you to have the one treat and then resume normal operations without fighting off cravings (and failing) for a week.

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                • #53
                  Originally posted by reallygravity View Post
                  By carbs, I dont mean the ones from vegetables. I mean the carbs from bread and sweets.

                  I have been eating primal for about a year now. I am doing very very well on it. The problem arises when I indulge (it only takes a piece of cake or a bowl of ice-cream). Somehow, it takes another week to get back to normalcy. A whole week passes where all I want is sugary and carby stuff. And yap, I end up eating it.

                  Is this normal, or it is a "willpower" situation? I must admit that I am not aiming to be a 100% Primal for the rest of my life. Those who eat 80/20 (where your 20 percent may be the "bad" stuff), how do you bounce back?
                  Not sure it's been mentioned yet, but how many carbs a day do you eat? Vegetables do not count. You don't derive any kind of measurable energy from lettuce, kale, broccoli and cauliflower regardless of what Fitday says the carb count is.

                  Do you eat lots of fruit? Do you eat lots of starch? Yesterday was a "low carb day" from me - an off day from the gym. I ate a sweet potato, a white potato, two apples and a bowl of pumpkin puree mixed with Greek yogurt, fresh blackberries and a handful of chocolate chips. Plus all my "normal" vegetable intake.

                  Does that sound like a massive carb intake to you? Because that's probably only 150g, which is <1/3 of what a typical American eats. If you restrict healthy carbohydrate - fruit, potatoes, plantains, sweet potatoes, taro, etc - from your system, you are going to binge like a madman when you come across unhealthy carbohydrate - cake, ice cream, cookies, crackers, etc. Your body needs glucose. If you are not going to give yourself glucose, it will break down lean tissue into glucose. Gluconeogenesis is talked about a lot around here, and what no one tells you is how incredibly stressful it is to be in a constant state of gluconeogensis. Gluconeogensis is a contingency plan - your body does not want to be in it (certainly not chronically), it resorts to it when it has to. You could not pay me to be at <100g of carbs a day every day because it beats the ever living hell out of your adrenals and thyroid overtime and keeps your cortisol, adrenaline and serotonin chronically elevated (meaning it's like you're chronically being chased by a predator). When you have elevated cortisol and a reduced thyroid, it makes it very hard to lose weight, which is why low carbers start out so successfully and always plateau on those last 20 lbs. They have low CO2 production, meaning their mitochondria are depressed, and high stress hormones. Keeping your body happy by giving it enough glucose will keep you stable when you do have a treat because you won't "go off" like a time bomb.

                  Does this sound like you?
                  Last edited by ChocoTaco369; 11-19-2012, 06:42 AM.
                  Don't put your trust in anyone on this forum, including me. You are the key to your own success.

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                  • #54
                    Originally posted by ChocoTaco369 View Post
                    Not sure it's been mentioned yet, but how many carbs a day do you eat? Vegetables do not count. You don't derive any kind of measurable energy from lettuce, kale, broccoli and cauliflower regardless of what Fitday says the carb count is.

                    Do you eat lots of fruit? Do you eat lots of starch? Yesterday was a "low carb day" from me - an off day from the gym. I ate a sweet potato, a white potato, two apples and a bowl of pumpkin puree mixed with Greek yogurt, fresh blackberries and a handful of chocolate chips. Plus all my "normal" vegetable intake.

                    Does that sound like a massive carb intake to you? Because that's probably only 150g, which is <1/3 of what a typical American eats. If you restrict healthy carbohydrate - fruit, potatoes, plantains, sweet potatoes, taro, etc - from your system, you are going to binge like a madman when you come across unhealthy carbohydrate - cake, ice cream, cookies, crackers, etc. Your body needs glucose. If you are not going to give yourself glucose, it will break down lean tissue into glucose. Gluconeogenesis is talked about a lot around here, and what no one tells you is how incredibly stressful it is to be in a constant state of gluconeogensis. Gluconeogensis is a contingency plan - your body does not want to be in it (certainly not chronically), it resorts to it when it has to. You could not pay me to be at <100g of carbs a day every day because it beats the ever living hell out of your adrenals and thyroid overtime and keeps your cortisol, adrenaline and serotonin chronically elevated (meaning it's like you're chronically being chased by a predator). When you have elevated cortisol and a reduced thyroid, it makes it very hard to lose weight, which is why low carbers start out so successfully and always plateau on those last 20 lbs. They have low CO2 production, meaning their mitochondria are depressed, and high stress hormones. Keeping your body happy by giving it enough glucose will keep you stable when you do have a treat because you won't "go off" like a time bomb.

                    Does this sound like you?
                    Loved this. I don't know about OP, but I could relate, minus the binge but only because I dont keep that stuff around. But certainly most of the rest of it, except I am not close to my last 20lbs either.

                    I counted all veggies (and their calories) and I counted net, but it all still adds up especially when you are trying to stay under a certain amount.
                    65lbs gone and counting!!

                    Fat 2 Fit - One Woman's Journey

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                    • #55
                      I want to clarify. I'm not saying everyone should eat 250g of carbs a day. That's what I average, but I'm a 26 year old male that deadlifts, squats and presses every week. However, I also don't think anyone outside of people on theraputic diets (keto for epilepsy as an example) should be eating <100g of carbs each day.

                      Don't follow some "carbohydrate curve." Eat what makes you feel the best. If that's 400g of carbs a day, do that! There are far more traditional societies that eat high carbohydrate than low carbohydrate, and high carbohydrate societies are often leaner. Starch is great for you. So is fruit. Just pick healthy sources. It's really easy to overeat bread and pasta, but I challenge you to binge on potatoes. After awhile, it's like eating concrete.
                      Don't put your trust in anyone on this forum, including me. You are the key to your own success.

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                      • #56
                        I think people are misinterpreting the carb curve because you have a small number of people that it doesn't work for. It's the exception, not the rule to have to restrict carbs so heavily to lose weight.

                        http://maggiesfeast.wordpress.com/
                        Check out my blog. Hope to share lots of great recipes and ideas!

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                        • #57
                          Originally posted by magnolia1973 View Post
                          I think people are misinterpreting the carb curve because you have a small number of people that it doesn't work for. It's the exception, not the rule to have to restrict carbs so heavily to lose weight.
                          I think the biggest problem with The Primal Blueprint is the carb curve. It's BS and completely unfounded. Eliminating grains, legumes, refined sugars and preservatives/additives/thickeners/artificial sweeteners/colorings/etc are what matters. Mark should be embracing seasonal fruits, roots and tubers. They're the foundation of the human diet - more than meat and vegetables. Look at real traditional societies thriving today. They eat far more plants than animals, and the plants are mostly fruit and tubers with nuts and seeds scattered about. There really aren't very many traditional societies eating fatty protein and vegetables, which is what Primal/paleo mostly advocates. There needs to be more emphasis on just eating real food and less focus on macros and exclusions IMO.

                          I want you to try and eat 400g of carbohydrate a day made up of real food. White potatoes are some of the most carbohydrate-dense foods on Planet Earth. Just try eating 7 lbs of white potatoes a day. When you eliminate sugary drinks and flours, it's just impossible to do. All the Carbohydrate Curve does is create artificial anxiety and macronutrient fear.
                          Don't put your trust in anyone on this forum, including me. You are the key to your own success.

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                          • #58
                            See, threads like this degrade into a carb debate primarily when people come on and make unscientific and untrue claims. Claims like "low carb wrecks your adrenals and thyroid" are simply not based in fact. Stick to sound reason and truth and we wouldn't have this problem. Low carb with low calories with excessive exercise MAY exacerbate certain adrenal or thyroid issues but not any more so than any other low calorie diet! That is fact! Some traditional societies may be high carb but the vast majority of hunter gatherers studied BEFORE being infringed upon by civilization are low carb with a heavy dependence on meat. Thats a fact! Over 200 HGs studied average 85% of their diet from from animal (protein and fat)....leaving less than 25% to carb .....again a fact!

                            Now, there are two ways to go about alleviating some such cravings. If you are working out very frequently at high intensity its quite fine to up your carbohydrate level to fit your lifestyle. Eating carbohydrate in a post exercise state is quite different and far less damaging than doing so in a fed state. There are traditional societies that eat plenty of carbs, BUT again the vast majority of HG's were low carb.

                            In the end you can experiment with two ways of getting rid of the carb crave. One is recognize it as an addictive craving (which if coming from SAD it probably is) and going cold turkey. Get rid of all carbs for 2-4 weeks of keto to kill the craving and adapt, then slowly add in healthy carbs back in. The other is suppose that you just need all those carbs and try to replace your SAD intake with primal options. I went with the former myself and do great in that respect. I'm at my healthy weight 34yo/m with a high strength/weight ratio.

                            Also take into consideration that low carb has been shown to be more effective for reversing metabolic syndrome.

                            Symptoms of metabolic syndrome are:

                            "A large waistline. This also is called abdominal obesity or "having an apple shape." Excess fat in the stomach area is a greater risk factor for heart disease than excess fat in other parts of the body, such as on the hips.

                            A high triglyceride level (or you're on medicine to treat high triglycerides). Triglycerides are a type of fat found in the blood.

                            A low HDL cholesterol level (or you're on medicine to treat low HDL cholesterol). HDL sometimes is called "good" cholesterol. This is because it helps remove cholesterol from your arteries. A low HDL cholesterol level raises your risk for heart disease.

                            High blood pressure (or you're on medicine to treat high blood pressure). Blood pressure is the force of blood pushing against the walls of your arteries as your heart pumps blood. If this pressure rises and stays high over time, it can damage your heart and lead to plaque buildup.

                            High fasting blood sugar (or you're on medicine to treat high blood sugar). Mildly high blood sugar may be an early sign of diabetes." http://www.nhlbi.nih.gov/health/heal...ics/topics/ms/
                            Last edited by Neckhammer; 11-19-2012, 09:23 AM.

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                            • #59
                              In general I don't disagree that you could just do "eat real food" and call it a day. I do disagree with fearmongering though. If you want to be macro agnostic then don't be two faced about it. It has to go both ways....

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                              • #60
                                Originally posted by Neckhammer View Post
                                See, threads like this degrade into a carb debate primarily when people come on and make unscientific and untrue claims. Claims like "low carb wrecks your adrenals and thyroid" are simply not based in fact. Stick to sound reason and truth and we wouldn't have this problem. Low carb with low calories with excessive exercise MAY exacerbate certain adrenal or thyroid issues but not any more so than any other low calorie diet! That is fact! Some traditional societies may be high carb but the vast majority of hunter gatherers studied BEFORE being infringed upon by civilization are low carb with a heavy dependence on meat. Thats a fact! Over 200 HGs studied average 85% of their diet from from animal (protein and fat)....leaving less than 25% to carb .....again a fact!
                                This is a logical fallacy. Just because you say it's a fact doesn't make it so. Please provide evidence showing that "the vast majority of hunter gatherers" were low carb.

                                Paleolithic Timeline | Paleo Diet History | Book List | Evolvify

                                The further and further you go back in the paleolithic timeline, the less meat and fat you find and the more fruit and starch you find. A lot of this has to do with the fact that we didn't develop the technology to survive in cold weather environments where fatty game is common until fairly recently. The traditional societies today are almost exclusively higher carb, and the societies with higher fat intakes in existence today has their fat coming mostly from coconuts, nuts and seeds, not fatty animals. I think you couldn't be more wrong. Even Inuits, the most extreme society the low carb zealots argue for, ate ~15% of their dietary calories from carbs, which is significantly more than you get on keto.

                                Originally posted by Neckhammer View Post
                                Now, there are two ways to go about alleviating some such cravings. If you are working out very frequently at high intensity its quite fine to up your carbohydrate level to fit your lifestyle. Eating carbohydrate in a post exercise state is quite different and far less damaging than doing so in a fed state. There are traditional societies that eat plenty of carbs, BUT again the vast majority of HG's were low carb.
                                Again, you have no evidence that show the majority of hunter gatherers were low carb. The evidence I presented shows the exact opposite. "Because I said so" is not an argument. There is also no evidence that eating whole food carbohydrate while sedentary is damaging.

                                Originally posted by Neckhammer View Post
                                In the end you can experiment with two ways of getting rid of the carb crave. One is recognize it as an addictive craving (which if coming from SAD it probably is) and going cold turkey. Get rid of all carbs for 2-4 weeks of keto to kill the craving and adapt, then slowly add in healthy carbs back in. The other is suppose that you just need all those carbs and try to replace your SAD intake with primal options. I went with the former myself and do great in that respect. I'm at my healthy weight 34yo/m with a high strength/weight ratio.
                                The best way is to stop thinking in terms of fat and carbs and just think in terms of real food. It doesn't matter if it's meat, fruit, roots, tubers, nuts, potatoes or vegetables. If it's real food and it makes you feel good, eat it.

                                Originally posted by Neckhammer View Post
                                Also take into consideration that low carb has been shown to be more effective for reversing metabolic syndrome.
                                Avoiding grains, legumes and refined oils has been shown to be effective at reversing metabolic syndrome. Show me a study where macros were held the same as on the SAD, but replaced all the grains and legumes with sweet potatoes, plantains and fruit. Low carb diets naturally eliminate grains and legumes due to the starch content. It's not the carb removal showing the improvement, it's the removal of toxic lectins.
                                Last edited by ChocoTaco369; 11-19-2012, 11:20 AM.
                                Don't put your trust in anyone on this forum, including me. You are the key to your own success.

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