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IF & Protein Minimums

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  • #16
    1



    No, Tim, that makes sense. Thank you.


    So instead of assessing daily totals, it's better to look at "the big picture." I suppose that could be a weekly or even monthly "picture." That said, how does one determine a minimum amount of protein? And how does that factor in with fasting?


    Brad Pilon might not have lost any muscle, but there are so many variables that play in each individual's situation, that I can't safely bank that I wouldn't lose muscle if I fasted.

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    • #17
      1



      protein amount suggestions vary wildly. the author of primal body, primal mind suggests quite a bit less than what is generally recommended. If you look at more body building-based recommendations, they'll be insanely high.


      Somewhere in the middle is the suggestion of 1g of protein per lb of body weight. I haven't actually figured out amounts in awhile, but I suspect I'm doing closer to 1.3-1.5g/day of protein, so the ifast days aren't as big of a deal.

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      • #18
        1



        Don't worry about catabolizing muscle during a fast. Fasting actually stimulates growth hormone secretion, which has a muscle sparing effect. Keep your fasts intermittent and no more than 24 hours (if you're worried about dipping into your muscle stores) long.


        When I fast, I always prepare by eating a big protein/fat rich meal before and after the fast. Works great for me.

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        • #19
          1



          Mike,


          I use the FitDay activity calculator to determine my resting metabolic rate and how many calories I burn on workout days. I've found it to be pretty accurate for me - it might underestimate calories burned just slightly (it's so hard to determine this). The nice thing about it is that you can enter your activities and how many minutes you spend at each and it will give you total calories burned.


          So my recommendation is to enter a typical day in the FitDay activity calculator to see how many calories you are burning. Then add 500 calories to that number. This should be your target caloric intake assuming you want to gain about a pound a week. Monitor your weight and your calories. If you are still losing weight try adding another 500 calories. If your weight is stable, try adding 250 calories at a time.


          It will take you some time to figure out your threshold for losing/maintaining/gaining so be patient. In terms of the added calories, I recommend that you get most of them from protein and fat. Add a sweet potato and/or banana post-workout but try not to add too many other additional carbs.


          Is it possible to gain muscle without fat? Yes, I think it is but it is also pretty rare. I think if you do it very slowly it is possible but most people are probably too impatient and when they don't see quick results they increase their calories drastically and add muscle and fat together. I'm still trying to figure out if "clean bulking" is possible and haven't really found any guidelines for it. If I do, I'll pass the info along.

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          • #20
            1



            Conan-


            Have you ever looked into the Ross Enamait info for his "clean bulk"? He did an experiment, on himself, to see if he could gain muscle without fat and keep his conditioning up. It might be right up you're alley. If you are interested, I can get you the links.

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            • #21
              1



              Clint, I think you might have posted the links before (if it wasn't you it was someone else). I checked them out and couldn't find anything about his diet. There was discussion about his workout regimen and training routine but not a lot of info on the diet portion (which is THE critical factor). If you have a link to what he actually ate during the clean bulk I would be very interested. Thanks

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              • #22
                1



                Erm, paint me naiive, maybe, but I kinda thought the whole point of IF was to macro manage calorie intake over the course of a week rather than micro manage it from day to day?


                Wouldn't it be sufficient to eat more protein just before the fast and just after?


                Seriously, now you've got me wondering.

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                • #23
                  1



                  Brahnamin - You're right. Nutrition and body reactions are best viewed over a significant length of time, like weeks or months. Not day-to-day. If you are not reaching your protein requirements only 1 or even 2 days a week, but you are on the other days, your body will be just fine. That's why IF works and doesn't put your body into starvation mode b/c an extreme calorie deficit won't trigger the negative reactions unless it is sustained over a longer period of time.


                  You're, more than likely, just fine eating your normal diet on non-IF days and not have to worry about making up for your IF days. Everyone is different, however, and I can't say this holds true for everyone. You have to monitor your results and see. Even if your body started to catabolize muscle, you'd find that it would be fairly simple to put the lost muscle back on once you adjusted the appropriate factors.


                  Conan - I'll get you some links to more info regarding Ross's protocol and nutrition.

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                  • #24
                    1



                    I have to agree with Conan, Jewelz. 800 calories is crazy low. I'm 5'1" and about 125 lbs. I'm active but nothing extreme and i lose a lot of weight if i eat DOUBLE that. I'm pretty sure you could up your calories by a lot and have more energy for exercising and still not gain any fat.

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                    • #25
                      1



                      I think another thing to note here is to carefully apply your protein intake in regards to how you feel.


                      I have been participating in the 'Survival Week' this week and yesterday I had a decent-sized workout, but my protein was pretty low. I was, of course, pretty hungry and instead of IF for breakfast, like I planned, I grazed on nuts.


                      All-in-all, looking back, I ignored my body's signal (hunger) for the overall lack in protein needed for the day (especially since I've been targeting and hitting 'Ketosis' carb levels all week).

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                      • #26
                        1



                        I really appreciate your advice, Conan and Karin. I dont want to hijack JMG's post. I plan on starting a primal journal so i can get more on track w/ all your useful critiques! Thanks

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