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Low Carb and Thyroid Function

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  • #91
    Originally posted by emmie View Post
    If you believe that what we eat (or don't eat) is the cause of auto-immune diseases,
    I've often wondered about this in the context of the chemicals that are added to foods. Some pesticides don't wash off because they are absorbed into the plant. All those chemicals, I also wonder if they build up in the body.

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    • #92
      Just to throw it out there, this discussion seems on its face to have high relevance to Layne Norton's metabolic stimulation theory:

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QHHz...JNbFwK9Fix-gFC

      Link goes to a playlist discussing the topic.

      Summary:
      According to Dr. Norton's research and experience, the metabolic rate of a person will decrease over time in tandem with caloric restriction and carbohydrate intake. This is presumably a feature in the body that serves to prevent starvation, but for those trying to lose weight or diet down for bodybuilding competition this metabolic slowing is a serious problem.

      His solution is to "reverse diet" his clients, having them add 5-10g daily consumption of carbohydrates back into their diet every week. By slowly doing this over a period of months, their metabolisms adapt and they end up consuming vastly more carbohydrates without gaining weight, and as a direct result of this he is able to speed his client's metabolisms to make it easier for them to cut weight.

      I apologize if this is common knowledge here as I'm unfamiliar with this audience. However it would not be surprising if Dr. Masterjohn's research served as the causative link between caloric restriction and Dr. Norton's observations.

      I hope this is at all stimulating to this discussion.
      Last edited by Jothra; 07-12-2014, 04:30 PM.
      Things worth eating are rarely sold in stores.
      [ Paleo // Weston A. Price // Intermittent Fasting ]
      *** School of Medicine class of 2017

      Comment


      • #93
        Originally posted by antharr View Post
        It took me a while to get around to lowering my fat intake and stop worrying about carb intake. I also started getting exercise in almost everyday. So here are the results:

        07/01/2014 Lipid Profile W/ Hdl High Cholesterol, Total: 243 MG/DL
        High Triglycerides: 152 MG/DL
        Hdl Cholesterol: 45 MG/DL
        Vldl Cholesterol Cal: 30 MG/DL
        High Ldl Cholesterol Calc: 168 MG/DL

        As you can see, the LDL numbers dropped significantly. Thank you for your recommendation. I think you may have hit the nail on the head.
        Good to see someone giving ChoppedLiver the accolades he deserves.
        Originally posted by tatertot
        Finding a diet you can tolerate is not the same as fixing what's wrong.
        "our ancestors obtained resistant starch and other fermentable fibers by eating a diversity of wild plant foods, bulbs, corms, tubers, cattails, cactuses, and medicinal barks..." -Mark Sisson

        "I've long ago tossed the idea that a particular macro ratio is poison, and am now starting to think that the EM2…is defined less by novel NADS…and more by the gut microbiome and environmental pseudocommensals ..." -Kurt Harris, MD

        Comment


        • #94
          First of all, the down regulation of metabolism in response to lower calories and carbs is NOT a 'serious problem' because it's too slight to actually interfere with weight loss. This has been demonstrated in various scientific studies. In fact, it's not metabolism that slows loss for those who lose significant amounts of weight but their failure to realize that after losing 80 or 100 lbs, they have a body that now requires significantly less food. That is, their usual calorie level is no longer a deficit.

          As to the adding of carbs, Dr. Atkins addressed this way back in 1972 when he first published. He advised people to slowly increase their carbs in 5g increments to find their individual tolerance level. Most of his early patients suffered from metabolic dysfunctions and often could not tolerate carbs at higher levels.

          I've done that two different times, and you don't develop the ability to consume 'vastly more carbohydrates' IF you are carb sensitive to begin with. For those who can tolerate high carb levels, this procedure works well, but it's not that you change your tolerance level--you just identify it.

          Comment


          • #95
            Originally posted by emmie View Post
            Neckhammer-
            The carb/calorie reduction effect on the thyroid is all over the internet--but nowhere in medical literature is there ANY connection between diet and the autoimmune disease Hashimoto's, which is the main source of hypothyroidism in this country.

            If you believe that what we eat (or don't eat) is the cause of auto-immune diseases, then you have discover the cure for MS, Lupus, Myasthenia Gravis, and a host of serious illnesses. Congratulations.
            Nowhere ...really? Have you looked? While I believe it to be more nuanced than only diet I absolutely have seen sufficient evidence that most autoimmune disorders are dictated by environmental triggers rather than some genetic deterministic disorder.

            And I already said that low cal or low carb are not to blame. I'm not disagreeing with this. We seem to agree on this completely in regards to your last post. I'm speaking in terms of Leaky gut, adrenal fatigue, toxic environmental compounds, and other triggers to autoimmune dysfunction that are diet or lifestyle related
            Last edited by Neckhammer; 07-12-2014, 04:47 PM.

            Comment


            • #96
              Originally posted by emmie View Post
              First of all, the down regulation of metabolism in response to lower calories and carbs is NOT a 'serious problem' because it's too slight to actually interfere with weight loss. This has been demonstrated in various scientific studies. In fact, it's not metabolism that slows loss for those who lose significant amounts of weight but their failure to realize that after losing 80 or 100 lbs, they have a body that now requires significantly less food. That is, their usual calorie level is no longer a deficit.

              As to the adding of carbs, Dr. Atkins addressed this way back in 1972 when he first published. He advised people to slowly increase their carbs in 5g increments to find their individual tolerance level. Most of his early patients suffered from metabolic dysfunctions and often could not tolerate carbs at higher levels.

              I've done that two different times, and you don't develop the ability to consume 'vastly more carbohydrates' IF you are carb sensitive to begin with. For those who can tolerate high carb levels, this procedure works well, but it's not that you change your tolerance level--you just identify it.
              Please understand - I was not indicating that low carb living is a bad idea, I even practice it. I was simply restating Norton's observations. If you'd like to spew bile over those observations, spare me and please contact Dr. Layne Norton at his youtube channel or by email.

              Don't shoot the messenger.
              Things worth eating are rarely sold in stores.
              [ Paleo // Weston A. Price // Intermittent Fasting ]
              *** School of Medicine class of 2017

              Comment


              • #97
                Originally posted by Jothra View Post
                Please understand - I was not indicating that low carb living is a bad idea, I even practice it. I was simply restating Norton's observations. If you'd like to spew bile over those observations, spare me and please contact Dr. Layne Norton at his youtube channel or by email.

                Don't shoot the messenger.
                Well since you are new here I'll tell ya....it's common practice to ask for a poster to articulate why they believe a link the post is valid as an opposing argument, rather than simply relying on the link itself. And " cuz he's a doctor!" Normally won't suffice

                Such observations as your link are a point of contention ....but in the end he is simply wrong if he claims a women is eating 800 calories a day AND burning 800 with exercise yet not losing weight. Doesn't take advanced biochemistry to figure this out. He's right that rate slows....but it can't stop.
                Last edited by Neckhammer; 07-12-2014, 05:01 PM.

                Comment


                • #98
                  Originally posted by Neckhammer View Post
                  Well since you are new here I'll tell ya....it's common practice to ask for a poster to articulate why they believe a link the post is valid as an opposing argument, rather than simply relying on the link itself. And " cuz he's a doctor!" Normally won't suffice

                  Such observations as your link are a point of contention ....but in the end he is simply wrong if he claims a women is eating 800 calories a day AND burning 800 with exercise yet not losing weight. Doesn't take advanced biochemistry to figure this out.
                  I did not make an opposing argument.

                  I had seen one phenomenon observed by someone else (Norton), and it actually corroborates what the original post is discussing. It seemed interesting.

                  No argument was made, much less an opposing one.
                  Things worth eating are rarely sold in stores.
                  [ Paleo // Weston A. Price // Intermittent Fasting ]
                  *** School of Medicine class of 2017

                  Comment


                  • #99
                    I'm just going to chime in and say we don't know enough about all of the variables of our bodies, and how they interact with the thyroid. You are all at least partially wrong

                    It could be that restricting carbs in the presence of, say, colder temps or more intense sunlight, or reduced stress, will have different effects, while high-carbing while caring for a dying relative who lives near the ocean AND doing chronic cardio but doing oyster shooters with friends to lessen the stress will affect your readings another way.

                    Or maybe your life is slightly more complex than that, as most are. To which experts will say, "aha! Eat a high carb diet! In the laboratory, it will affect X!"

                    A couple of people I know have been diagnosed with Lyme, and it is basically a multi-systemic clusterfuck. It reminds me that the idea that we can argue "LC vs. HC" to fix multiple symptoms pretty laughable. Parasites, pollution, pesticide exposure, allergies, stress--there's so much that's unaccounted for that also has an impact.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by fitmom View Post
                      I'm just going to chime in and say we don't know enough about all of the variables of our bodies, and how they interact with the thyroid. You are all at least partially wrong

                      It could be that restricting carbs in the presence of, say, colder temps or more intense sunlight, or reduced stress, will have different effects, while high-carbing while caring for a dying relative who lives near the ocean AND doing chronic cardio but doing oyster shooters with friends to lessen the stress will affect your readings another way.

                      Or maybe your life is slightly more complex than that, as most are. To which experts will say, "aha! Eat a high carb diet! In the laboratory, it will affect X!"

                      A couple of people I know have been diagnosed with Lyme, and it is basically a multi-systemic clusterfuck. It reminds me that the idea that we can argue "LC vs. HC" to fix multiple symptoms pretty laughable. Parasites, pollution, pesticide exposure, allergies, stress--there's so much that's unaccounted for that also has an impact.
                      I agree with this sentiment.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Neckhammer View Post
                        Actually I'd call the hypothalamus the master control dial. The pituitary the master control gland. And the thyroid is just following orders.

                        Course you can't leave out the adrenals and those feedback loops as the interplay of HPA and HPT is huge.
                        Yup. HUGE.
                        Life is not a matter of having good cards, but of playing a poor hand well.

                        - Robert Louis Stevenson

                        Comment


                        • I totally agree with the idea that we don't know enough about the variables in our bodies--which is why I dislike the constant refrain of low calories/low carb leading to thyroid problems.

                          At age 21, my niece was eating a typical SAD diet and was overweight. On a routine physical, her TSH was 13--ADVANCED hypothyroidism. Her doctor had been attributing her complaints of fatigue to her weight and 'depression.' The weight, depression, AND fatigue were all due to her thyroid problem--that had clearly NOT been 'caused' by low calories or low carb, since she ate heartily at all times.

                          Since I have Hashimoto's and her mother is also hypothyroid, I suspect that hers is genetic, but all endos will admit that it's impossible to identify a 'cause' for thyroid dysfunction. That's why I find it amazing that posters on the internet are so very sure they have the 'answer.'

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by choppedliver View Post
                            Welcome to the club. You've seen the light. You'll never convince the naysayers, who'll argue 1+1=3. Just ignore the low carb cult and do PHD. It's that simple.

                            Actually, I missed your blood lab portion of the post. Here's the issue. The LDL skyrocketing could be due to your low FT3 or your ApoE4 genes. If your temp is low, you've lost significant weight, then it's obvious that your FT3 would be low-normal. Get it tested. That could be an issue, because it could come back up in response to higher carbs or it may not.

                            Second, I see that your LDL rose in response to being high fat and so did your HDL. You could be homo or hetero ApoE4 and, if so, then you need to go easy on Sataruated Fat. Yes, saturated fat. There are no sacred cows in dieting; every damn person is so different. About 25% of the population is ApoE4 and your story is so damn common that if I got a buck after reading about LDL and high TC after starting high fat or low-carbing, I'd be richer than Jeff Bezos.

                            If you want, get 23andme tested. But no need. You need to do high-carb/lower fat Paleo. Not low fat, just lower fat. You could comparatively increase the MUFA portion but that would be somewhat difficult. You need to go from muscle meat, cream and butter to yams, sweet potatoes, and white rice. In other words, PHD, like you said. That will solve your problem in either case -- whether it's your genes or your thyroid. Your lipids reacted so quickly to fat, it probably is more ApoE4 than thyroid. But you're right, it's time to get off the low-carb bandwagon.
                            I asked my doc today if we could perform labs to determine if I am ApoE4. This was his response.

                            "I'm sorry we don't do that kind of testing in our office. It seems a moot point to me what gene would influence your Lipid panel since you can't turn it off only effect the results with lifestyle, diet and/or medications or Red Yeast Rice."

                            He had really been pushing statins. When I refused statins, he recommended Red Yeast Rice which is nothing more than a stating itself. So flipping bummed.


                            Sent from my HTC One using Marks Daily Apple Forum mobile app

                            Comment


                            • Choppedliver seems to be one of the sharper folks at this forum. He offered an alternative to the statins and Red Yeast Rice, and you could look into which foods and natural therapies provide the same benefits as those treatments and then experiment to find what works for you.
                              Last edited by Paleophil; 09-17-2015, 04:22 AM.
                              Originally posted by tatertot
                              Finding a diet you can tolerate is not the same as fixing what's wrong.
                              "our ancestors obtained resistant starch and other fermentable fibers by eating a diversity of wild plant foods, bulbs, corms, tubers, cattails, cactuses, and medicinal barks..." -Mark Sisson

                              "I've long ago tossed the idea that a particular macro ratio is poison, and am now starting to think that the EM2…is defined less by novel NADS…and more by the gut microbiome and environmental pseudocommensals ..." -Kurt Harris, MD

                              Comment

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